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DOCUMENT NO.
ANDTVPE
001. paper
DATE
SVBJECTfflTLE
Interview with the First Lady by Adam Clymer; RE: private info
[partial] (2 pages)
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09/3011994
RESTRICTION
P61b(6)
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COLLECTION:
Clinton Presidential Records
First Lady's Office
First Lady's Press Office (Lissa Muscatine)
OAIBox Number: 20112
FOLDER TITLE:
FLOTUS Press Office Interview Transcripts Volume V 101l9194--041l0197 [Hinder] :
[9130/94 Clymer, Adam New York Times Part 2 of2]
2011-0415-S
ms99
RESTRICTION CODES
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b(l) National securityclassifi~d info~m~ti.onl(!»(1 )ofthefOIAI,' " " '
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~: b'(3), Release wou Id:~ iohi te 'a "Fedl;~~ i,~t:it~ te; I(b)f3) 0r:the;fO IA Ii,::
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'financial. information l(a)M),ofthe PRA]' ,',
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THE WHITE HOUSE"':
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Of~ice,6f the ,Press Secretary
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,INTERVIEW WITH. THE 'FIRST LADY: :
. BY .APAM· CL.i~ER" NEW YROKTIMES '.
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\ MRS ~ CLINTON :.' 'The' p~e~i4ent',' sa'id 'they had
~vent' lastnigl?-t. " '-'.' ,:,,"
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He'was .,;.;.;.. the Presid'ent 'was very good.
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I werrt;. out·tJlere.'/ I'hadth~.
interest' (inaudible) beyond
the time. :that
spent, in. the House, I th~nk'tlie KerinedYs.
were sho\¥:ingeve'ryp:i,cture. in the 'plctce;which wO\J,ldtake .'
. qui~e ·a:.-- ,takesqui,te a w h i l e . · \
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~mpression .thatthe'Presiden~'s
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MRS: ; CLI~TON::Hew:as. " 'They ~h6"ied ,hini. a' lot..
Fe:all,y was a
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great,'e~perience.!
But I guess rwas --',I jus:t··
was, a bi,g.'fund:raiser.. There·iwere
th_e:te,.a~cordin9".to 'the; p,r!3sident.
,d~dn"t understand.'This~
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750,800~people
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Well,":they rais,ed .750,' but they
Yes.
(Inaudible) ., . I would.1ike ·to be
had fewer ,than that 'there.
'. :~qda}i on the'. teco;rd,,' unless there's'someth'ing you want to·
,say.
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Anyway. -As' I ''sort: 'of transcribed it a'nd r.ead i t
"'andt:hougtit ~bbut; 'wh,at ,you 'said .(ini:lliciio:J.e)-- ·let,. me raise
one thihg ,abo~t that. It may say sometime, .-- .and plaiply,
you don't want· .to ab?ut':(inaudible).
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MRS •. CLIN~6N:' .' Right-.~
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MR., CLYMER:.,' But, s6m~ o'f; 'your 'sort, of 'gerter ic
,",gescripti,ons' of 'the 'problems that,' you 'l:.'ehaving., If, I ,talk'~
...to Lisa. and say ~ : It (.I:r?~udible) , .... is" :thatokay? '
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\' MR.. CLYMER:, . Rqther' than, tryi,ng to, go' ,over the
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,'MRS. CLINTON: ,'And there may b~, a'differentway of
;saying, it"tl],a;t I WQuldl1!t mind saying,too,.', '
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'MR~' CLYMER: 'Sure. '
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MR.' CLYMER:' But" as I looked overthecoriversatJ.on,'
'! think you identified" th:';-ee sets ,of (~n'audible),. ,One' ,w?ls
perhaps 'takln'g ,a' Iota!., 'well-intentioried': thoughtful ad;vi'ce
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."from, Congressional leadersthat:d.idn't work, , onthihgs, liJ<~,
,schepuling andpriprities
using the statement of , ' : "<"
prlnciple~, as opposed toa bill,or stay;ingon det.ails
, '(inaudible) :~' ,'It. 'doesn't :necessar~ily 'prove that:'doing' the
,'QPposite would have worked bril'liantly, ,but tho'se thiJ)gsdid
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have worked.')
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, : 'The -s~<;:ond, ar'~a is 'a:sens'~ of bel,ng:'let d~~n ,by
some Republicans', '):>y ',some ,gr,oupsthat were basically your
friends and ,well-intentioned, on ,the smaller 'is'sues but on the
'bigg'er"pictureanq. also' by' not 'getting 'what' you thought you' "
, were' reasdh~bly ~nti tIed t'o 'from,' bu~iness.or t h e , ' ,
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consideration' given some of those in office; is that a :'
fair -- . :
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MRS~ CLINTON::Ifhin~ so.' And l' don'twi:u1t;., 't,o
give the impress'ion.that ,we had a'right to' expect any of
that;.~
Because I think ,it" s ~'fai+: to say that people' actin
,their ':own self-int'erest. And that'1s the basis-for th~
political "gbTe-and.:..take.'
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cowrutment to' certaln POSl tlons'wa~ not a ;stable one, so that'
"qur effort' to' find the middle or, to reaeh ,agreement ,with "
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individuals, and groups was a', constantly evolving process;' a's
6ppo~ed to: some more "fixed ,~niverse, wh~re you could tell" " "
what people's P9sitions 'were, ,and mo:ve 'toward' them and, make
the ,necessary ,compromis'es' in~order :;to' get' folks on board.
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MR.,CLYMER:Ahoth~r ,thing, I think (inaudible) . '
This is perhaps a' $;lightly different, categOry. , "I' th'ink, you,
,,, were $ayirig th~t you underestiniat.ed how your, own (inalldible).,
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MRS. CLINTON: yes'." Both' how. y{tule'nt and :hO\'/, "
,; ,effective ~h'ey'woulcibe ,at controlling tl)e deba:tethrtn~ghK,
,persfste.ntmi~representa1:i6nthat ,V?e could never, ,~dequately
~efute. ",And again, that, was, t,o be'e,xpepted.,,'~ ' r e a d ' .. "
'every,thing', r ,could findabout)whatP,re~ident'\Trunian h(;l(:~, gone
,through. ',I read;aboilt' -the Medi6,are, and ~ the Medicaid , yO\! , '
knovt~·, ,debates 'and struggles.
,I "read about the, Nixon; 1_,'
prop<?sa.f~I' read~ .about carter' sefforts w.i,th respect :to
,hea'lth care.
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," ' S o 'I: was not ,und'er any.' ~llu,'siori ab6ut,'l10~ organiz'ed
and str'ong ,the oppos'ition ,'to health' car'e reformwoul,d be.
, But I , did no~ appreci'ate how sophisticated' they; would' b,e ,in i.,
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conveying 'messages, that 'were effective ',politically,': even
thoug,h ,substantivelyo/rong, 'ang., that ,we could never quite ,.-get.
- 'ba'ck into 'the discussion in an effective manner • Because we
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" did not haye the.' financial're,sources to co~bat every attack '"
" ",,:: "" th~t'a:pp'eared;on', either :the. TV cn:-·· the radio"or.: 'c;tlsO ~n ,ldi,rect
~",. mal. I,;, where, 'I' th1nk some ,of t;hemost effectl.yeoppOSl.tion
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surfaced.
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MR. ,CLYMER:,', (Inaudible).
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. MRS~' CLINTON: Have' you ever' seen the collection ,of
"diri:!ct .mail ~hat w,e ha~re: qompi+'ed,?
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, MRS.' GLINTON:', You 'm'1ght, V?ant to, take a ,look at' it .
It' went ,to ini~li9riS. and millions' ',of people.
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don't '$eeyery many of the lis'ts~ '~o
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you "r,?ad, it' ~'",
You'll never talk to 'me a~ain after ',
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, , MR. CLYMER: I've, started calli'ng j,n the 800,
',. numbers on soine of, the stuff on the theo'l:y tha:t we,'ll" ej'et
, anothe,r ,(inaudi,1?le) ' : .
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~ ~'Did 'tney'er\ier send you. stuff?
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MR:~ ."CLYMER:
(Inaudible,). Something c::ilsethat has
",struck' me as; perhaps an ~vEmg~,e,ater pr~blein ,was that 'people,
, ',kept making 'compar;if',;ons. 'W~ have (inaudible) of 'Social
s~curi1;:yandMedicare. ' There's,a profound:difference
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'MRS.CLIN:TONi" Right. ~I And a:,D'~pression: ~:tFld ~,
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"'MR. CLYMER: 'i'think' th~~e'wer~ te'chIH.callYthe:
of,'the ,-charg~:.',' "" ' ' "
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'MRS. 'CiINTON:, But' ~herewas: not only j:he "~o~itical,
'majority. but"the emoti'on~l commitment to, push ,for 'pliblic"',
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, , M R . 'CLY:MER:well~on~ :,cou:ld' know that you didn{t' ,
'startoff,'{inaudiblef~'
"Iwqndered', in view of ,that and the ,,"
,: oth,er problems you, t~lk~d aboti:t,,' was"yolirproposal perhap's,
':Iull ,of lumpS , the,' things that YQu werewilling',to c'ompromise'
~n that. you ,talked about th~, other, day, become liab~li ties ,to ,
yoU instead of lifting you ,up" and that is' how the 'other guys
190t the baseball?", '
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, )', ':~s~ :,~LINTON: ':'WeIli ,that is jsomethingI think --',
well,' I ,know ,I" miscalculated b.ecause 'I al,ways 'saw ,the' Heafth<,,'
. Security ::Ac:t as r an 'ope'iiing' of~er, .a ,document' to'bj3come, the,
ba,sis ,.for ' political decision', making . .' ' It, 'was' constructed' to
be deconstructed. "
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' And what ',I never anticipated is "that the 'fir~t
,offer ~iould" be·' used;as: the means 'fordeominizirig .the eritire
p~qcess, so tha-cwe did,eyerything we'thought we,cduld,doto
:make. that clepiwh~n ·it was' introduced' by 'talkil}gabout how.',
the' Pres identwas' open ,to, new , ideas', there was. no .pr ide .of ','
au~h6rshipi "there was 'only one bottom line' universal:
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coverage,_ 'Beca:useat:thatt;imei,univ~rsai covera,ge had a'
major.ity",of suppo:r:t ,an4 ,still' ,does.' But ,;iii the "congress., ; I'
. was going to' say. ' 'In, the Congress'.'.
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'either si'nglepayer types',~niver~al coverage managed,.
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" completion types", and" the 'Republicans; who; "were signed onto
some form of universal 'i;::Overag¢~you:p.ad ,a very hefty 'working'
majority" .'so 'that we knew we: would 'have' ,to 'move' off of·
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'ma,nda1;:O,ryalliances arid, the, form, of: the premium cap' and th~
'size'.ofthe benefit'package~, 'But we anticipatei;i,doing,that.
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>What 'we 'didnotanti'cipate is that oUr first offer
· would --be viewed 'as' an 'ult:ima.tum 'bi .the"oPPorients,. i:md, .. , ' ..
.: ' , th~:tefore, used to to '" try t6u.ndermihe.the process Of
',: " reaching ,agre.ement .around ,the. basic:: pr,iriciples.' , solt was,
, ""something '.we continued' :to, .struggle, with and"decided' that. ' .
· maybe tl}e _.bestway'tq·. encqurage . 17 he ' pro~ess of decision' " " ,
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. ,inak,ing' WaS 'through :,thel Congres~.ional committees; because they·' ,
", 'were,'the' maj'or pla'yers'.
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I 'So we "pulled back. and ,talked ,only abou't7 princlPl'~S'"
al1d continued, to talk'?lbout the plan but at ~very turn. s~id
that' everything in there', except" for the bottom line" .'is'open
to, discussion .• ' ·"If YOUi'" meaning any opponent, "have a
better idea or 'a 'better approach,"let us hear from it." And'
that'swhq't' '1 t,hinkwe, 'neyer'ade'quately'got';across' td people.
And we w~re then paint'ed"as being inflexible', or"unwilling' to
negotiate, when that's: how ,we saw-the··wholeprocess. •
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'negoti'ate afiq getnothlng .1n ret:urn. ,'1 ,mean,' to give "up on
chunks of a coher"eht plan ,that would! work ·and was,wel'l
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, :reece'ived . by :th~. Congressiomil Budget Office and out,s ide ~..'
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,a:milysts~ .' Al)d so people' who· attacked portiol)s of 'it without
'offering:an alte·rnativewere." not· really' rteg·otiatiIlg'.. . ' - : ,
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MR. CLYMER: ,'Or ev,en'without offering their vbtes.
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MRS ~ CLINTON:: . ,Yes.
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'MRS. 'CLINTON:: 'Yes.''fhat was not·happel)l.:ng.· s.o·
"the demoniz,ation pf the He(ll.th Sec;:ur'ityAct vias~he_ biggest ..
problem,th~twe' faced~:' And what, we atte~pted. to ,do was to ..
. >' . keep. talking' about the principles while'· we searched fo:r; ways
:to hammer out, legislative'compromise .that would still" '.
" : guarai1tre~'r1iversal,coverage,. .....' , ' ;
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. It" w~s,::funny. -: ,:1\ House' Democrattol'd' me that' sh~'
had 'gone to her district, and ,I thought,' very smartly I p'icked:
people. to be advoc.ates for ,each d'i,t'ferent' approach that' was
.. embodied ':Ln leg'islat:ion -- proposed 'legislation,. ,bti:t: withcHlt.'
identifying any ... So somebody 'spoke ,for :single payer ,.: '
· somepody', spoke for' the'President~s plan;' somebody' 'spoke .for'
.managed competition. and' insurance reform, :et cetera, and in '
front .' of a very,' large atidience'.·
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.. And then,- .shehad people 'interacting with 'the"
.:, . speakers, not· only by qliestionillg, but by,having little
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. voting.tablets on'their 'pesks, ,so that· they ,could" vote' for·
, each proposal.' ,'And thePresiderit's proP9sai 'w<;:m.·
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,But ,then,' when'it' was', identified .as, the PresidEmtis·
proposal, ,people ~ta.rtedt6 get':.antsy, ,because, 'they thought
('maybe the per'sonwho>had e~plained it to them ',had ,som~how," .
.either not understood'it·ormissed all pf'thepropaganda that
they: had been: reCeiving over TV,' radio" and'tl1rough direct
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. : And' this repres~n:tative.' toid met-hat ~it wa's such a'i,
'... stunning experience for her.' 'But it was 'also like. that .
\' headline. that appeared in a ,number of.' pape+s"back in the
. ' spring, which ~was" "It: ,'s the Clinton Plan, Pe'ople Like'; They
"Just· Don't Know, It.'!. .
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Sb:,we(Wer~st¥ck ,with adi:fficult:posftlon,' since
we·hadprese·nted a cohe:r:ent plan that ,WOUld have'"worke'd but.
:wh'ich wewer'e ~ore" tp.~n, wil+ing' to: ,make changes:off 'of' and,
analyze the, chang'es ,that' we, thouCJ:p.t were doabie. : Anq we
',couldn'.t qUl.t:;e.,get'tp.at across.:. . . ' .
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MR .. CLYMER: ,,' Was this district
was the' plan· ;,.,
P?pular "OF unpopular?'
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MRS., CLI~T6N: ,unpopular'~
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. MR. CLYMER: ,That l.S another problem ~or the
"Presiderrt "~n \gen,eral '(inaudible), ,the CHint9n ,plan ,',.. "
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MRS. 'C~INT9N: ,Wetl, I think'that -~,
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"MR. :CLYMER:", y~U kno~, "pecause'of' other subjects."
MRS~ CLINTON': I think that the 'political.
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,atmosphere" that we have been working in during the last 20 . :!
months' ha's been extremely negatIve: and j"unfort,unately,' ", ,
partisan:,' And the Pres,ide,nt' sw.il'~ingriess 'to k~ep tackiing ..
tough 'issues' and to make.the' best 'decisions that' . .
could' he
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,made· doesn't' often satl.sfy: people on e·l.ther extreme, of any
isslle,which is; one ,0f.the'reas;0Ils'Why.I·thin1chistoricall'y,
we will 'be .soappla~dedbecallse of bow he hasmanetlvered.· .'
through this time to,c:r::eate tpe most ,stibstantiallegislative'
record ,in' 'decades.; " ( ' , ; " , ' , - .... "
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. BUt' y'ou. 'pay a J::iic;j' prlce:, ,,:.The.price'of' being,' a
ref9rmer, who tries ,to :bring competing positions together ai1(j,
moves 'from' h1gh ';f lown rhetoric ,t'o'; a'c,tual:' poLicy' making is'
always/a ciifficuit position.' It was Mark Twain' who ,said,
, "The 'tw,~: things 'you sh,oul\f ne'verwatch, 'being made ,were,
sausage: and ,.legislation. '! Have :I'.gqt that'rigpt? ,WaS it
him?, I ,-tak~ :yqU ,word for i~-.' "
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MRS. c~nITON: .r 'II' takeyourwbrd "for it_ But the,
thing that is ~() 'clear· tO,me' is :that if . the' President had',.'
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upon takirigoffice, ~ontiriued to ',~alk about' issues, a,nd to
~ give' greatspeech.es,about the,cl;taTlenges facing America and.
the pr.ob 1 ems , here and ~broad but had 'not 'actual,ly tri,ed to <do
a,nything'much about domestic pol i t,ics, he. wbu"ld:t;>e extrem.ely,,·
. 'popular ,today, because' he ca~ g .tv~.' the gre~test: speeches,_ He
,can conl)ec.t :, with peqpleunlike anybody that :i: think' we have
'had. in American 'politics fora long time.,
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But 'once,you move' from rhetoricaJ, positiQning:tp.·
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nota'p:retty sight.,tt-is', in('a democracy~ a m~ssy orie 'at " " I
. best. . But. this' ,President b'asthe 'old-fashioned idea that he"
wa~.eiect;ed,to.actually'dosomethil)g and ,not jlist'promote' a
, ,certain, political, ideology and 'point fingers at all the
"causes 'f~r: ou,~ current pr6bl~ms
'Am~rica,.'
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pol~cy making, you move int.o the politic:::al realm,.
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,So he 'knew ,that i t was' a ,'big 'risk to ,actuali y , ..
address the deficit'or,to ',try, to :getthe. Brady bill passed or ' .
the crime billpasse.d or,1:::ake onNAFTA and, al·l the, other
. things which' have 'engendered extraordinary' POlitIcal' ..,
.oppqsit'ion. 1
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I mea'n:, one of 'the ,great~~ths ab~ut 'my.'hu~band is
,that he' dO,esn't,wanttomake 'a~Ybo4ymad. WeIll' for,;a man as
smart, as he' is who, doesn.'t' w?nt to make anybody mad, h1E! had,'
done a 'terrific' job of, making 'an'enormous''riumber of! people ,,'
mad. for',. Ythin:K,' 'good reas9ns"I:'mean~' I think 'it's a badge
, ' of honor, to have the National.' Rif,le,:' As~ociation ~,be'opposed .to
" you because yop. beat; them not d,nce/'but" four ,times ,in.. ,four -,
separate votes. ' ' . ., .
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'·"But ':wh~n' ~ou 'have : that'~ntensity of, '. oppo,~i tior.,
because, you're ,~rYing' .to', do' someth~ng th~t: you b~lieye is'
r;ight· for the country; ,·then not ,only Q,o,You have intense
opponents ~ but youhavEl 'infen'se, opponents' with'resources whq
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, ,So. there if,;" ,I ttiink,';a' l~t ef: geed rea'sel1swhy,
I;this/Pr~sident' has the, level 'ef 'eppe~:;ittqn 'that :,he' has. ,And;
ef"ceurse," h~alth care,whi'cb is such ,a'complicated and,' '
,impertant,issue,would'hav~,ehgen<;iered'epp6sitien anYway.
'But e'n top ef the' huge, agenda', he w.as al,se taki~g eri" it was a',"
big lead, to. carry.
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MRS. CLINTe>N:, 'The eppo'sitien did riet, surpr is~ 'm~. ' ;'
',The personal', nature,Q{
i6t ef the I a~tacks surprised me." '
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But;r ,den't\have any preblem ',with, peeple ;'b~ing eppesed 'to any ,
pelicy that, they. 'disagree with.',! thi:t;lk tnat's the',
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demecratic preces's. aut I den ",t think I, was, prepared 'fer the,'
ameunt. of, r~seurces that 'were' readily available'for the'
'opposition'~' ,
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Apd I den't knew that I : wasprepar'ed fer h'ew : ,',
difficu.lt"a task 'it':was toreQut theeppesitien~ BecaUse 'in
a' campcti,gn', particularly at the.. Pr~sdd'eritial level, if' you
stay' en: yeur "tees, :,yeu ,don it let" ch.arges "go unanswered , i f
, th~y are put ther~" 'but, yeu have thereselird,es ~ t ,your hands, ' I '
'to 'de that.' , ',,' , ' , ",,',
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MR.::CLyr:uiR: ,Let's
t,esemethingwe talked
'abeut the ptherday ,'" arid ,that was sc;>rt ef the, (inaudible) ~
'(Inaudible).. And yeu have taken en net' enly, a party that yeu,'
'(inaudib:J..e) "but a 'let' ef ,sUbstantial (inaudibl~).,'
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" :,'MR. CLYMER: 'The Wall street Journal did' a series
ef 7-: their', editerial page' (inaudi,ble) , saying '(.iria:tldibl~).
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MRS: CLINTON:. 'Yes: 'Se:t think,,' in g'enerai,: the
, " press: rebutted- ~'letof the ,qlaims. But 'if you den,'t reb~t '
it, in'the ferum in,:which the message is delivered, it gees
',unrebutted'. so. t'hat means,',i:fyeu den't have','a r'adie ,,' ,
campa'ign a~~ a TV c,ampa,J.gn, arid if, you, den I t, even ,knew about',' '
the direct; mail campaign, thepe9plE? wbo' are "bedng influen'ced
',by th~~ kind'ef c-eppesitienare geingte remain influeryced.
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" " What, we paslcally had avallaple was the ceverage"
that ceuld beebtalried iri,the'se-ca:Iled'''free press,", which I
>.-think,' en ba,lancewas very fair,.' I mean,I' believe tpat:,
there were a,number,of- steries'which peinted'eutthat'the
Presi~e~:t i ~ pian 'iNouidnet depr ~'(e peeple 'qf cheiqe"ef',', '
decters, fer ,e~amj;He:
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That/'is 'one of the really difficult: parts ,of , waging ,
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Becau~e in ,an el~ctoral 'campaign, "you know " riot every
,cc!l:ndidate 'has equal .resources" but you know w~at, the 'format
i~f" you, know, how to getac;ross your me'ssage.
And this was l
'justmuch'mo,re difficult , to ,do. , ";,' ,:
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,'And even, the people~ who work~d veri. hard 'to help
had-different ,'.takes' on the, message, 'whiqh further, muddied ',the
w~ters,. 'You lcnow,it'.,wasdifficult ,to get! a'single positive:'
, ',' respOnse. "Iti.s'much ea~ier'to, g,et a:sdngle~ negative' campaign'
'going, 'so that if your message is""Il.m against itj' it's' bad
, for 'you," that's easier than", "That's ,n,{:>t quite tru~;,le.t" me
explain to ,you why it is riot true and"give: you some:
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" MRS. CLINTON:!' dbn'~tknow, Ada~.l3ecaUse .when ,',
, Senatpr ~~rd ,said no:to the whole j:"~form, package, 'that, pretty',
',much ,stopped our considering 'it. ',i bel ieve" there were ,some'
co'ncernsi. though, about, how 'Yo\?- ,wouldbrealc apar:t ,th~:pieces
of it and irijectthat .into' an already very~ difficult
budgetary."process" if, you' couldn "t: alsp give some of the \ '
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addltl0nal POSl. tive reasons for it. So T' ,think, ~-, you know, ,
i,t .~J;t 'Emde~ ypat the sam~' place',which; basically, it"
<:;:ouldnft get done.' '.
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' MR., ' CLYMER; We talRedthe ,other day about, the
hopes':you had of reconciliati'on",- I've gone' backl, arid read
,the ~"notes., And, I ,have a ,strong sense that· one" Bird 'said,
"No, you ':couldn~t ',do the~hoie ,thing." • ' (tnaudible) "senat.e
rules (inaudible), ,but ~that' it : remained ',possible ,through s'ome,
elell).~rtts for, a recopciliation.
,some of"the stuff '(inaudi'ble)
and :that it wasn't :'sq, much. ,peoplec in :the senate as the,
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concerns of bringing' 'dowrf the deficit (inaudible) .~m "I, right
about that?,
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"MR. CLYMER: , ,Some :pt' 'the other things ,that'
of 'your !lIistakes~ ~,-'
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yqutalked ,ab9ut. 'Assuming ,in. the,la,st; fall"tliat,'cpice ':,
Congress,', ca~e ~ack, and (inaudible'},-: Copgress 'c~me "back ',ahd:,
there 'was this feeling of (inaudible) '~But ,anYway, your
expectaticm, ,.there'¥(as ,.that(inaudible)~, . There are some' '
others' that val::ious:~thers(inaudibl~) . '
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,'oria --:-' I think theon'e thab Ira 'would 'offer, first
of,al'L,is, din ,retrospect'; ,too secretive ~n the, initi(i~
process' (inaudible)sllspiciolls,i:u'ld' ,the voters w~re' ""
((inaudible)' balance., Let . ,me, , just ,i:-un',:through 'some.
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:;), 'Tha're 's 'a sort of .contradict.ory'sol.lnd,.' one'saY$ :
that you:; were aSleep at: the switch ,and sulleri., ',And' the otl)er
',' 'o~e is, that 'you were ,too',c9mbat'ive, .that you' were (iriauqible):
"with,the,insuranceindustry,(inauaible) . . The fact'that both'"
: arguments are: ina~e ~u,ggests that ~either" (inaudible')poss;i,:bly \';'
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COUld, ,both, be 'right'(inaudible) • ,"'You talked bef·ore' abOut
( , , that,., :.(Inaudibl~) .'", ~ . ' '
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MR., CLYMER:, And ,100 according to Annenberg., ,
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",Imean, the DNC'dldan irtcredible,'job, raising moriey
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in addition ,to dqing, that, they added ontoi,t 'r,a,ising
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. money for ,th~ 'heaithc:;::are initiative. 'And' t~~n', you know, we,"
dlid' very well:. , Andlirider normal ,circumstances, it might have,
bee,n en~ugh.:But it wasc.certainlY not 'enough'. ' /
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MRS~ 'C~INTON: Ahd 120 ~C'cordifig t~ An~enberg~. j so',>,
you know I ' you ;d0rt (t I,have to 'm~t,ch' people 'dol1ar-for~doll'ar in " . '
either politipal campaigns orpQlicy campaign~, but you have""
to" have enough. ' 'And part of' what" we, were up , agilinst' is ,that
, the .;DNC' was' raising" money "for lots -of other things ~" , " "'"
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MRS;CLIN,TON': Oh, ,we'r~ised'a lot 6f money. I;
mean, we J;'aised milTions i:)hd 'mllliQns,6f ,dol,lars. , '-:i:' don't
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kl10w what t~e final count is, but we prooaply spent 12, ,$1'5
million'.. I . don't know exactly. But the opposition :spent 300'
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mllllon,'1 accordlng,to Newsweek."
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",AndI'~~ s~rprised ~t,: Cinaudib'le},~- wh~'n,You see,
"/how many people t,urn,up 'at furid', raisers, 'who, may, not wan:t' --', ,
'don't particularly', want everyone ~n' town toknpw, that,' "
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<,inaudible)'.' I.'m surprised that you couldn't ra~semore :
money., , _
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,'MR~ CLYMER:, . What,'~bout,'th~ s~cretivEmess?
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• ' , ,'. MRS. CLINTON:' ~ Well, T think there were some ' ,
':rni,sta~es mad~' ,then,' "but, I 'had,a' l~ttle ~it of, fa, question'
" ' apout' 'exeJ,ctly what' tl:l~Y ,were, and' how' we ,could have done"
';differently,. There has never ,been, a niore open ~eglslative' '
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'drafting ,process irithe' history., of. "the reP\l~J,ic/as far' as:, t
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I .m.ean;,·'whei'h: you/, haVe , 'hund'r~ds ~rid: ,hundreds of,
pe'ople, ,many o:f ,them from ,t,he' HiLl, . involved in drafting . the
legislat~qn, ' that' is llnpreci~dent~d.
'~' ~ean,~ it, was ,a very ,
differentwayof, trying: to do policy. And whem ,tl:le bill ,
, "itseif i,s drafted ',by thecongressionallegisi~tive dra:f'~ers,
that" shardlY,a secretive ,process ~,"
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"'.", f think:thls,;all, g~t~ta:rted becauseofth~" right
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process:: And I,
fil,ed suit under theFACA Act, against th~"
think,:.!' made'a mist,aka' in";viewing that 'as
such, anpbviolls ; partisan. ~"":' not', evenparti'san ...;.- such an"
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" obvious 'radical,right 'taptic ',that I, didn't think anyo1)e I would '
,see it as ,'aserious indictment of the 'most 'open' 'legislative' '
process ,that, had'e:ver~heardabout~·'" An'd.,:1 was wrong 'about
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'But~1 ,think the bigger, mi'st'qke was 'in ,hot 'providing
some regular conta'ct with the press. And I do think'that.'was
"a ,mistake.' And tneonly' explanation tpr it'isi, again,' ,
everybody,. involved with.health care waSbasicaliy told not,to
talk to'the pre'ssbecauseof·'th~budget arid that people
di'dn't,want articles appearing. abQuttlie health car's ',' .:
legislation, when, ,everybociywas focused' on ,trying, t~ get the
'deficit reduction' packag~passed, s9. ~hat. 'we could 'at "least:."
'have everybody's, attention,: wherta, it. was t~otigJitneeded at
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. '. 50:1 ,th1nk that what' was._vl.ewed as a, very prudent ,
legi'slatJ.vereason imdercut the relationships tha't, C;ould have, '
,existed 'between people'working'onhe'cHth care,and'memb~rs of'
'.thE{ press 'couldhave been'better cOnUnun,icative ,fo°i;:-, 'what was
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g'oing: on.·,yBut .Jdon't know how, you 'cail a proce,ss that has,
, htmdreds,and !,huridreds,andchl..Jndredsof. people' involved and "
which inv<:)lves' .the "Congress at'everys:tep ot:'the .way: and' 'for
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"," whl.ch ,there' was" an ' enorm(;)t~spubl l.9 outre~ch .frol!l, ~l?-e very' .', '
firs:t'~:dayabout whatw,e.were,doing:.a ttsecret process'.tt .. ".,
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·.But what \<i,e should· have ,tried to figure out'is; 'given" the
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:, cons'tra'ints 'o,t ,the', budgetary deba:te, .how,'could we have heen '
more forthcoming Yiith the pr,ess so that.thepresswouldn't '
havehought in ,to the right wing attack, about the" secret
,-/. process.
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MR.- CLYMEE,( ,One' of rthe:t.hings that some, of. my
friends qver a:t ,th~ White, House.(inaudil:?le)~.:'
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MRS. CLINTON: You' know, ,I ,think' if, y<?u' -.:.:." I ~ean,
,:C vias ,,'on' the --road constantly in the spri~g of ,f 93. '" I think
, : .rif you' went backahd looked at 'the' clippings," I had ,press,' ';,'
avails in every'town I,was in., ',I ';d'idnewspaper, inter:views.
/ I did radio ipterviews. I did, one':""on"':one t~levision
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" interviews ~ 'And, mos,tof ,IllY activi"ty, ,because as wha,t :t, saw
as my public rol'e,' ,was occurring outside of, Washington. "
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" B u t I', had' i,nte~sive press': c~:mta~t's~ 'whIch I w~uid
", be glad to ,tiave'Lisa give'Y9u an example of~"So ± ,dori~t "
,understand ,that,.', , I ' mean" I will, be the' first 'to 'tell you, , 'I""
',,' am be~ildered by wha:tt):}e standards 'f<?rj p::~sscoverage. lare' ,
, , that are now , ,but 1. ' don't. have any.anu!'loS1!ty ,toward" the press
" as an' instJtution or as t,lie, individuals who comprise it.
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But,Ihav,Epa :lotof quest1qn$'as' a' ,citizen;,~bout
what is newsworthy anymore and 'what is' the bas;i.s for ,.'
information that is reported? ' of,tentimes;, :not even, sourc~d,
'or~ sourc¢d so vaguely that 'it~s ,ha:tdto, know. wha:t: th~ .real' ,
agendais~
So I have, qu~stions' thqt I t~ink most ,Amer iean ' ,
citizens, do now,about the way the' press is operating.', ,"" "",
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,'.Bu,t I"don't' haveany'an~mosityr ag~inst the'press.
I" just ,wish Iupderst90d better' how ,the press was, defining
its r<;>le' and how, :certain journalists, were justifying what' is
apparently a ratp~r~significant departure from pr~vious ' ' ,
standards of conduct.
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MR. 'CLYMER:" How do y6u;understand '( inaudible')?
to, (inaudible)' as President. (inaudible)~
.Bu't ,can you give me some, kind of ,s,eI)se(of where 'you 'were, .: '
, involved~ where he was involved, where, -- I mean" where'there'
, were different 'things ,you focuse'd ,0ri?From .time to' t.ime, '1, '
would get an :account \ of a meeting (inaudible) 'you ',weren' t
(.1naud1ble) .
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,MRS. CLINTON: '. Oh,.,:, far f·rom:1t'., I mean, everythl..ng
I did:,and everything iIi ,that,plan represen:t:e<;i 'his position., .
Becaus~ he, came.into .this with, 'a v.ery,well-developed set 9f '
\'~ ideas about .what he' thought would work,-d~awn' froin l}is,
experiei1c~ ,as a 'governor' and' more recently'; fr6mhis being
'the governor 'wh9 cO"':chaired'a commission about ~h\ealth ,care
. and ,then ,a,$ ,thePresidemtial candidat,e,~
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. ±mea~'; .. it was real,ly'hi~ ,idea'
try
,marry
, . manageci ,competition, and' universal coverage :in a way, that. '
,would, promote c,ost,containinentandquality ,"and'9h'oice .• th~t '
" ' 'resulted; in:ahybrid" whi,ch,everyone 'who. ,knows' a' ],ot' about, .
'healt~ ,ca're re~orm,that I h~ve spoken with,you;"know, 'really ' /
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,thought, was an: incredibly, useful way, of', trying to get: '
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" ,," ..differentpoirrts of ',view melded together ~n a ,system ~ that .,
" ',woUld work, tlrat was' a uniquely American; . . ,
resp'on~eto, 'health
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so'i,always ,fel,t~ reJieved, ~~tually~ ','be,'cause 'he
WQuid be the ,person who, would ,ultimately make the 'decisions ...
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B1.1t" :you':know; ·Mi1:an·'wa:~:in\"p. lot Of ,thdse
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meetings., And he' wotild ,be ,there~ ,And. he would' be ,arguing' .
over arca~e econometric actuarial. analyses.., And he would cut,' .
right through it~" He woulA saYi'Yo~ know, "What 'a;re.. you, guys
. 'talking .aqout? ' I f :you, lOok on' page 4 ¢f,that analysi!';;~', if ."', .
'you turn to pag'e ,12, you ~ ll':real-ize 'that thc>se ,ar,e: mutually, ';
incon~istent, and w~ can't do ,that. , We,l:H3.ve 'g<?t to ,do
:something else.",
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: ' And, it;s',not.. just 'because: he',s' my husb~nd~ I. thihk ':,
he's 'really :wonderf,ul because' he really' und.ersta:ndstp.i~
issue. ,And he ,is' 'ab,solute'ly convinced that if We, don't'
'address )i:t,.we, are underminittg' our future :eccmomic' well
'being ,,:'and, are fur:t.h~r driving, wedges between classes of'
people ,in't~is' country thq.t will eventually undermin~,the
deil).ocrat'i'cproCess.· ,. ' " '
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" So he had: a 'v,ery'ple~r, appreciation about, you
know, wh.at might haveto,:bechanged."Bu:t,he.al~ayshad-his ,
'bottom" line pr;inciples: in. m,inq.. ·.But I.'wOuld 'say of al). the'
, "peopi'e'inthe ~dm~n'istra~ion wno,:attemded' ,ilfeetingsabout ,: ,
health' care reform betweeh' January of, '" 9'3 ,anq August' of ,194,
, ,Bill~ Clintoh had 'a better understanding; 'a deeper
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'apprecicitidri :()f 'both', the'iiscal'and 1:he:institu1;ional issues
, aS$oci'at'ed",with health ':care thah,,'anybody> else'. '.',.'
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:And' 'at' ev~ry,step' of :the 'way ,the ~firial' decision,S
,wffre ,made, by ,;tl)E! ,President,. ,Arid we 'didn~ t do, anY,thing " :
withput tris finall¥ decj.ding ,thatl)e was. willing to . sign off
qn ,it; . NoW",he ,also understo'od' better 'than anybody elIse, that "
'this was meant to be a,'nego~iating doc~m~nt, this 'piece of,
'. ,legisla;tion.· 'And that's what. we thought would happ'en.'
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Mit. CLYMER:, 'Even ,'whEm yoti 'thought, he made ,the
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IneVe!'thought ,he" mad'eth~ Wrong,
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• MR., CLYMER:, Never? yoti'never ,~rg,tied?'i, meciul" you
, 'nevei: 'took a positionand,'h-= disagreed",with,you?
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" MRS. CLINTON:, Oh, yes., Oh" yes. , That 'would often'
,happen.'" But"you ;know, my view of what, my rOle' was 1.s to ",
help facilitate'hi~ pollOy.,' So:even'though,we might: have~a '
discussion abo:ut, you :know:, X'approach"versus, Y approach; most,
o,f ',;the time, 'he persuaped' me that ',Whatever' h'is:, positi,on was' ,
,,',' was the right, posH:.ion, becallse he',knew so' much morealiout. 'it
'than either I or; mos~ people ~,~ " \:
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He raisedqui3st;ions, that after" you know" it ha,d
been vented, by everybody in 'the Admin'istration; were' new,
questions, 'because ',-,:"
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MR'. 'CLYMER:, Ca,n you "give<:ine a for, instap.c¢ 'or 'a
time whEH1 he\disqgre~d :\'l'i~h You? ';" ,
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don't, want.fe'talk," about 'my conversations, wi thhi~. 'But',
the±-e' were many. 'times' J'lhen~he' 'WOUld just ,cut through the
debate and, you know, illustrate .an issu,e'.ina way that,
'nobbdy else haq.: even-thought about before ~:' ,',1'
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' :):' jus1t ;can't even' ~mPhasize 'ho~ stro,ngly' h~ :feels,
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, ,but more than that,' howmuch:heknows' about this issue and' "
': :wliat, it's' doing to the90uritry ;$0, I just r~gret' th,it, f,or
whatever co;mbination" of reasons, bbth the, pp,ssion and" the, '"
knowledge, he brought'tO' this'issuewere.somenow underinineq. or
lost',bec£auseo;f"the process, :thatwe~followed~' ' "
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,Arid wbeni,t",s,'al( 'said ,a~d do,ne~ "what~verj cr.it1ci~m
anybody has' orwhat,everCinybody thlnks, we should have done or
'shouldn'.t have done, the bottom, line is, we 'di:cln't,get it
done. ",So ,I', regrettnat deep:lY ,becal.tse I thfnk it's "very
, ,'importal)t ,that, we continue: to ,struggle with' the need for i,
,change in the system.' And he's not going' togiv,e up, on it.'
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, 'MR., CLYME~: "(-InalidibleJthe ,congress' fina~dible) .
But with ,that, regardless, of it,' do you'have any" sense from' ~>:
th1.s (inaudible) 'of :w,hat ,sort '''Of) direction, '( inaudible)?, ) , '
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�Withdrawal/Redaction Marker
Clinton Library
DOCUMENT NO.
AND TYPE
SUBJECTffITLE
Interview with the First Lady by Adam Clymer; RE: private info
[partial] (2 pages)
001. paper
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DATE
RESTRICTION
P61b(6)
09/30/1994
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COLLECTION:
Clinton Presidential Records
First Lady's Office
First Lady's Press Office (Lissa Muscatine)
ONBox Number: 20112
FOLDER TITLE:
FLOTUS Press Office Interview Transcripts Volume V 10/19/94--04110/97 [Binder] :
[9/30/94 Clymer, Adam New York Times Part 2 of2]
2011-0415-S
ms99
, Presidential Reeo'rds Act'~ 144'U~S:C. 2204(a)I"
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PI,Natiiin'al",' " _.'. .:. ."': - ,..... ' :1
Secu',·itY;C1i1ssified·Iiiformation'l(a)(l)'ofthe.rPv\I; :·;~'i.;.N ':"c<:",:,'!. b(I) Nationlilsej.:ufity!dassificdinfiil'mation 'l(b)(I )'oftlie'FOIA].";"
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,,;' l' ,.;:,;, .>b(2) }Release:;'woulddisclose. inte'rnal' persiinnelrules ,a'nd l pdlcticesof~'
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P3 Release would violate a Federal statute l(a)(3) of the P M I : "
an agency l(b)(2) of the FOIAI
" " ' ':':P4Rdeiise:wo'uld~disclilse traiJe'secreis'orcon fidential ~om i1iel'cia lorf'~~1i(3) Release ~'otild vio:ate'u'F ederal'statute"1 (b )(3) ofthe FOIA I:"
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. ,: ;fin'ancial'information'l(a)(4) of the P R A I :
' b(4) Release would disClose tnide secrets or confidential or financial ' '
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" " personal privacy.(b)(6) of the FOIAI
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b(7) Release would'disclose information compiled for law enforcement
purposes l(b)(7) of the FOIAI
b(8) Release would disclose in'formation concerning the regulation of
C. Closed in accordance with restrictions contained in donor's deed
financial institutions l(b)(8) of the FOIAI
of gift.
PRM. Personal record misfile defined in· accordance with 44 U.S.c.
b(9) Release would disclose geologicaJor geophysical'information
2201(3).
concerning wells l(b)(9) of the' FOIAI
RR. Document will be reviewed upon request.
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MR.CLYMER~" ':(InaU:dibl~)' involv~"the c9ngress"
agairi,/you're going to, have to:find ,ways,, > , . ,this', 'out'. ,
1:0 work.
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And, that ~as a personal~d{sap~6intfu.nt.·,~eca~s~' I
, guess 'I 'thought, that ,with:, p good, core \group committed to,.'" ,
universa1 coverage t' ,there ought to have bee;n a ,Wi;iY to work ' "
out the details.'
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MRS. CLINTON:, i 'That's' r'ight:. : ,And ,I' look forward- to,
that., 'I 'mean, some of, my best personal, w'orking, relationships
:' "with, wer'e with ,some of the' Republicans., ,And I have no reason
.,t<?do,\ibt that they' are i~S 'd~sappointed as we,are ,tha~' ~his:~ ,
dl.d not ,come to pass"thJ...s tl.me. _But they hay. apoll.,tl.cal' ,
, atmosphere that, ,was 'difficult fo,! ,t~e~; just, as' the" Democrats',:
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Ancl'as Is~idin my sp~edi'yesterday,' t mean:, I
,don 'tthink 'all this "conversation about who :wOn ,or lost in '
\, "washingtori; whether'it be the President ',or' m,e, or Repu'blicans
'or Democrats really is'relevant. Because what's ~important'is
, ", "that, we keep 'on working together to try to addrE3ssthis
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isstfe. ,Because ,it's .the American peqple' who are going, to wih
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,) Imean~,' when, the' Cdngressrecesses, "every lDember 'of"
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Congr~ss ,is' going' to ~av:e health.:}:)Em'efits. ',,'So if theY're:'
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" ,}:jack in ,the Distr.ict and they get in a car accident, ,they
.. ' ,dQn't have,to,worry~And, :that's', not" true for ,l~:rg,e numbers
of ,their constituents in every single district- in this'
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lissa Muscatine - Press Office
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
First Lady's Office
Press Office
Lissa Muscatine
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1993 - 1997
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
<a href="http://clinton.presidentiallibraries.us/items/show/36239" target="_blank">Collection Finding Aid</a>
<a href="http://catalog.archives.gov/id/7431941" target="_blank">National Archives Catalog Description</a>
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
2011-0415-S
Description
An account of the resource
<p>Lissa Muscatine first served in the Clinton Administration as a speechwriter. Within the First Lady’s Office, she served as Communications Director to the First Lady.</p>
<p>Lissa Muscatine’s records consist of materials from First Lady Hillary Clinton’s Press Office, highlighting topics such as health care, women’s rights, the Millennium Council, Hillary Clinton’s 2000 Senate campaign, and deal extensively with press interviews given by the First Lady; her domestic and foreign travel; and speeches and remarks, on a wide variety of topics, given by her before and during her time as First Lady. The records include interview transcripts, press releases, speeches and speech transcripts.</p>
Provenance
A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource.
Clinton Presidential Records: White House Staff and Office Files
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Clinton Presidential Library & Museum
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Adobe Acrobat Document
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
1,324 folders in 27 boxes
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Paper
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
FLOTUS Press Office Interview Transcripts Volume IV 06/07/94 - 10/13/94 [Binder]: [09/30/94 Clymer, Adam New York Times Part 2 of 2]
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Box 5
<a href="http://clintonlibrary.gov/assets/Documents/Finding-Aids/Systematic/2011-0415-S-Muscatine.pdf" target="_blank">Collection Finding Aid</a>
<a href="http://catalog.archives.gov/id/7431941" target="_blank">National Archives Catalog Description</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
First Lady's Office
Press Office
Lissa Muscatine
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
2011-0415-S
Provenance
A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource.
Clinton Presidential Records: White House Staff and Office Files
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Clinton Presidential Library & Museum
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Adobe Acrobat Document
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Reproduction-Reference
Date Created
Date of creation of the resource.
11/26/2012
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
2011-0415-S-flotus-press-office-interview-transcripts-volume-iv-06-07-94-10-13-94-binder-09-30-94-clymer-adam-new-york-times-part-2-of-2
7431941