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r---------------~~--------~--~--------------------~--~----~----__,
THE WHITE HOUSE
,Office. of the'Press Secretary
April 13', 1994
For Internal Use Only
REMARKS BY THE FIRST LADY
DURING INTERVIEW WITH BOB WOODWARD'
" , .
f
Q what t wanted to do, is I -..,. is I
rea'lly look
at things, the ':health care business in-- I .hate this word.
Macroeconomics is so important to what happens to government
spending. It obviously is the issue that affetts people on a
broad scat~ the'most~ .
-j..
And I'd like to 'go back to that time in January
last year when ,you and your ,husband decided to make you head
'of the healthcare'task force. If 'you could give me how that
was decided, what your feelings were -- as I understand, at
one point he 'thought' of appointing Gore to: that position or
maybe exen Senator Rockefeller.
MRS. CLINTON: I don't know that. I mean, I-- I
don't thinK, I hcive anything to add to what I said last time
we talked., I mean, it was -- you know, it was r~ally a
decision that he made~
Q
.
Whem?
Do you remember?
I .
,
MRS. :9LINTON: I think it was January. But I don't
remember. 'And the first time he ever talked to me aboUt it
~as in -~ we were still in Arkansas.
So it was probably
sometime in the: first two -- two and a half, three'weeks of
(inaudible) .
Q
So. after you got back from Renaissance.
MRS. CLINTON: ,r --,yeah . . r mean, i just don't
remember .. I just know tha,t it was sometime in that period.
Originally, I thought it was December or January. But I,
think it. was probably January.
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. And. I~:~'-. I think .that one. important, point, is, you
. k novl; ~'the: President has alwaysbeen-- he started out and ,he
remains, in my, 'view .;..";; and this i$ obviously biased in his
favor,~s I'usu~ily ~ci -- ~h~ most knqwled.geable person about
health care reJprm in the entire administrat,ion.
I mean, he
unde~st~nds,the'.i~sue better.
He understands the numbers.
'better.'
'
"
,
'
.
.
'And liis ,view about what needed to be done has
,remarkably 'bonsistent from the time he w~~a
.
~ov~rnor de~ling ~itn health c~~e issues ~n the receiving end
to the time'that he s~ared'thegovernor'~ t~sk force through
the campaign into' the. a d m i n i s t r a t i o n . '
,
,
"rem~ined
."
So, much of'the conversation he had:withme or with
anyone eJ,.se"was'really his' description of, what he thought
would work and what he want~d all .of us' to explore , . flesh
,out, ,analyze qnd. come back to him with.
,,_.::-'
Q Could,you set the 'scene for me of when he -
.where ¥ou wer~ and about, when it'was> when he said, "Hey,
dear';' would you like to. head.the health care task force?"
".',
MRS:' CLINTON:
I don't have any' memory of 'that.
I
mean;, it ,was a,-:-:- it was a',rolling conversation (Laughter),
like a lot of oU'r conversations. They don't have any
particular, you''.know, notice to. beginning, middle or end.
They just kind '6f ro;tl along~,
'
, ,
,Q
Wha;t was, -- what' did' you think?,
, . MRS. CLINTON: weli,' I mean, I thought ,that it --,
i twas' 'an incredible chailenge for anybody ~,' 'Bllt I really
,thought· it, was s'o important. ' And I think
I thfnk he
r~a:llythought it would~be ~good,thirig for me to do.
So it
just kind of all' f~t: t6'gethe~, really.
.
he -
Q
Did' anyo~e advise. against it?
",(
MRS~ CtINTON:
I'm sure, they did.
But I don't know
Nobody talked to me bE:cause he pretty' much made up his
mind.
I mean, I don' t think' it· was something he, asked·
peopl~'s 6~inirin~-about.
'.:'
.
that~·
, r,.:'
',Q
Someone said Vernon· Jordan atone point came to
you and said', "Don't take an 'office in the West' Wing," and
kind.of ar~ued against
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MRS. CLINTON:
Q
~~
.I don't remember that.
'a high profile
position~
MRS. CLINTON:, I don' t remember that. I don' t
remember .that, you know.' But any '-- I mean, when Bill 'asked
me to chair the education, standards committee back in 1983 -
and a lot of people thought it was a terrible idea. Our
friends thought it was 'a terrible idea because no matter what
I did,I'd make somebody mad. If I did nothing, I'd make
people disappointed., And 'his enemies thought it ,was a
. terrible idea.'
It's pretty much the'same, you know.
(Laughter) I
. mfe,an, you know l i t ' s -:....: that was one of those things that,
you know, YOll just --:- you just do what you think ,is right and
let the chips fall.
J
Q Take me' through .what. you did first, then and
just -- I want to get -- there are a couple 'of moments where
there're meetings where you and Ira Magaziner have said
things. But I'd -- I'd love to g~.t· your sense of what. -
okay. Now you've got --,in a way, ,if' you think about it, one
of the biggest jobs in government. Now tel.! me what, if you
would, how you thought of the
your strategic approach to
. it, if you will.'
,
MRS. CLINTON: Well,' I really thought. not .so· much.
of it as a job iri con~enti6nal terms, 'but as a.respohsibility
to help facilitate a lot of, 'people who ~new a lot more. about
this than I did -- to' get them to work toward creating' the
plan that the President· wanted •.
I mean, I never thought I would become an expert in
any particular aspect of health care reform. But' I did think
that I could at least. bring people into a process that would
work. And so, you know" I talked with people. about. what had
been tried before. I got some sehse of other major ' ,
legislation like social security or Medicare or, you know,
Clean Air Act -~' I mean, things thatwer~~very big pieces of
legislation in the ~ast 50 o~ 60 years.
.
But I ~- I really viewed my role much as the way
the President described it when he introduced me and
announced this whole effort, that, you know, I could get
people together. And there were going to be an immense range
of diverse opinions. 'I mean, I. have never seen an issue that
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brings 'out more concern, anxiety, insecurit.Ybecause ,ttis
such a personal one.'
So, it doesn't matter.~f you're talking to, you
know,somebody that you meet on the street or your talking to
somebody that runs a major medical school or ,whoever the
person might be. 'Coloring their vie:ws df whatever
professional or expert nature they bring to the task is this
personal experience. So, what my hope' ,was is that I could
create a p~ocess' that would lead to everything being, looked
at -
Q
Yeah.
I understand, that. '
MRS. CLINTON: Because I': di'dn' t want anybody·
saying, "Well, that would have been fine. But they didn't
look at that," you know. So -- and then working to give the
President options, which he then would decide among, and,
getting everybody to, the table all thle time, knowing full
well that it was' going, to be a vigoro;us and difficult deba,te
all the way'throughit·.
QWhat did you say to Ira to get ttim to be kind of
the executive officer of the effort?
MRS. CLINTON: Well, the 'p'resident really wanted
Ira todo.tha~, ,I mean, because thePi~sident had worked with
Ira onh~alth cafe issues.\And, see, Ira brought to this
experience, you know, his management cons'ul ting background.
But also, for a ~eriod of years in the lafe'80s, Ira
bonducted one of ,the very fe~ actuaitime sf~dy motion
reviews of what happened in" the health care system. I mean,
he sent -- you know, he supervised a crew of people ..
,
"
'
,
Q 'He,o/ent out to hospitals and -
MRS. CLINTON: Oh, yeah. But -~ and he had a whole
team· of people who literally followed nurses and doctors and
social workers and other people so that you could get below
all th~ abstract statisti6s."
'
And out~6fhis ex~~rience ~orking with *ajor
.corporations on cutting costs and understanding better
allocation of resources and his hands-on experience in the
health care field, reviewing what went on,'he had, a kind of'
mix of experience that the President thought was, you know,
right for what he wanted done.
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Q A huml;:>er' qf peoplehave,'said if you took, all the
development of health care, ~rid)aid it'out into ~tag~~, that
the!e -- the fir~t cbuple ~f m6n~hs 'were kind of t h e · ,
idealistic,phas~.
Is,that a fair,characteristic?
.
,
, . MRS. CLINTON:
'.
No.
I'don't thirik
Q. How:woulci you "characterize it?
'MRS. CLINTON:. There was never an idealist ph~'se.
(Laughter:)
Ther~ was"-- there was an effort to try to
m~rshall every -~ ev~rypolnt 01 view.
I was aiways, ve~y
clear about what: the Pre~ident,thought would be the out~om~
ot this. And, ih fact~, ~~ are where the President thought we
would be when this whol'e.process,started.
But:" 'in fairness to' the pr~sident,'and in fairness
to the process,' we had to look at everything.
And we did.
look at everythlng., I. me,an, we-~, we did a very thorough
vetting of.., you know, ,co'st figures fo~every particula~
approach.' We 'talked to people,who ranged the gamut about all
different kinds 6f reform options.
I ~ean, we coll~cted
millions of 'pieces of paper a~d onl~hd on.
,'
' I never vie~ed it asideaiistic.
I viewed i t as
pragmatic p:t;"ob+~:in-sol.ving.
I mean ~" we didri' t want to be
caught unawares. "~I We: didn't" want the Pres ident to· be in a.:,
position'wher~ i6u pre~ent an option, and. somebody would ~ay,
"Yeah. But, what 'about" ' ,you khow, Prof~ssor:So and So who
says XY andZ?" 'f So I viewe~ tha~as, a'n:' imperative for us to
get everything w~ could under .the tent .
. '!
f
.
"
.
And s6. that· meant we .looked at a lot' of stuff.
Some ,might be
Some might'be'considered idealistic.
considered, '.,you know, realistic.': But I. -- that wa~
irrelevanttom~~
,Q
What was the..~majoF,furnirig point> in the early
phase uP. through ~ay?
,MRS. CLINTON:
I don't' think there -~ I don't think
there was a turning point. ,Ythinkpeople'-- and I know you,
obviously, h~ve'talked to:lots of people who have ~seenbits
and pieces of this.~'
.
~.
.
"
I view: it ~s a -~ as a -- kind of a strai~ht line
in a ,sense wi th' in'formation . b'eingloaded on and decisions ,
,
.
I
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being made as we moved through the process because the -- the
President rejected a single-payer option unless we could
prove that' it could work better or do things that he didn't
think .it could do. And we couldn't prove that.,
He also rejected the pure managed competition
option which basically had no cost controls nor any real
guarantee of universal coverage. And, you know, we spent a
lot of time with, those folks and gave them every opportunity
to, you kno~, make their case.
So from "my perspective, the President's v ~ewabout
what needed to 'be done -- we had to try to either disprove or
validate as'we went 'alol1g. 'You know, there were pieces of ,it
that didn't sta'nd up to 'analysis. And we went at it a
different way. But the -- the basic structure of what the
President wan;ted is what is in the' legislation.
Q Do --do'you.remember talking to Rostenkowski,
about the tax question and -'-- because early on, it looked
like you might need more 'than taxes ,~~ more taxes -- not just
the cigarette tax, but there was some donsideration of the
value-added tax and so forth.
MRS. CLINTON: Well, we considered everything. I
mean, that -- we. corisidered everything. I,mean, you know
,
Remember him, Rostenkowski', saying", lIyou just
can't send another tax up here. It is just-- you know, it
- it __ II
.Q
MRS .. CLINTON: 'Oh, I'm sure he said that .
• Q ' Yeah.
MRS. CLINTON: I don't have an'y particular memory,
of that. I'm sure he said that 'on more than one occasion,
you know, as did other.people~
Q
Yes~
Right.
MRS. CLINTON:
that prospect.
Q
,
'
There was nothing very new about
Was -- was
MRS. CLINTON:
The President didn't want to send
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another tax up either.
Q
He didri't?
MR,S. CLINTON: ,Oh, no.
Q
When did he
MRS. CLINTON: Oh" he never wanted.
he never
thought we needed it. He always believed that you -- you
'with proper structur~ o'f financing and delivery, you would
get sufficient savings in the system., And you could get
additional revenues by getting everybody in the system that
you might need some, you know, tobacco tax or some other
minor tax to kind of 'put, --.put all of the pieces together
until all of the savings kicked in. . '
But he' never b~lieved that we -.-:- I,mean, he must
have said a million times ·to me personally and in meetings,
"You" know, I cannot believe these people don't understand
there' is more money in this system than we are using
rati~nally~
I want the money out of the system· to be
reallocated. And I want the savings realized.~" I mean, he
always believed that.
Q' And this is
A VOICE:
Q
Yes.
that's
that's the key element:.
He's very aggressive.
Right.
That's right.
Right.
(Laughter)
MRS ..CLINTON:Oh. ,·I mean, that's what he believed
I mean, you' k~ow, he believed it when he was a gov~rnor.
He believed
.Q In fact, some people have said he hates the
health care system as we have it now.
,MRS. CLINTON·:
Q' I
He doesn't hate -:--, no.
"
He-
I don't mean -
MRS. CLINTON.: He hates the irrationality of the
financing system. I mean, we have the best health care
system. 'We have the finest doctors, hospitals, nurses. But
we have the stupidest financing system in the world. And· it
bleeds billions of dollars out of patient care into
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extraneous cost~ that are in no ,way related to health care.
'Q
Administrative
MRS.
etcetera.
CLINTO~:
co~ts,
bureaucracy
waste, fraud, unnecessary tests,
Q May 20th -- this was the day that you did the
pro-con discussion, I think, in the Roosevelt Room about
whether -- what -- how much of a benefits package to have and
there were peo~le whb argued for the smaller on~ and the
larger one. I think Jean Sperling (phonetic) gave'~ rather
impassioned political speech that you need to get political
support for this. And you're going to have'to deliver
something that is visibly good to have that support.
Then at the end'of that meetin~, you said
now it
was.a large meeting :.,.- "Let's not anyone talk about it." And
some of it·leaked out in the press, ,in fact, quite
.. inaccurately.
MRS. CLINTON: That-~ that -~ one thing that is
marked about all the work we did in the health care reform
process is how' iriaccurate.the press accounts wer~ .. And it's
. because people were, you know, getting the tip end of the
nose of the elephant or the tip of the tail and weren't
seeing the whole. picture.
.
So they'd get some leaked document. And they"d,
you know, say, "Blah·~ l;>lah, blah." Well, that leaked
d6cument was' part of a whole series bf option papers. Or it
had been rejected the week before.
It was never presented to
'the President. So there was so much. inaccurate reporting
going on.
Q And. you and your husband decided to stop big
health care meetings after +
MRS. CLINTON:
Absol~tely.
Absolutely.
Q Remember what you and'he sa'id? And I know you
were quite upset about ·it. He was .q~ite upset. about it. And
I've' looked.
know what happened at the meeting now, I
think. And it" was ~~ it.was a pro-con debate.
It was not a
decision meeting.
It was presented in the press as a
decision meeting.
It.was presented -~ what .did you say and'
what did he say to each other? You remember?
.
:1'
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MRS. CLINTON: Oh, I don't
I don't remember
that.
I mean, there were sO.many meetings.
I'm not even
sure that I remember the exact meeting that you're talking
about.
But it -~·but at some point -- I mean, these wer~
never meant to be decision meetings.' These were meant to be
internal discussions-
Q . Briefings.
MRS. CLINTON: ~- and briefings about what the
various options were and for people to, you know, really go
at each other, which I encouraged.
I mean, I like that
because I .want people to have a forum to express their honest
disagreement.
But you. can't .-- you know, you can't do that
if you're goingito have to be responding to something that
was or was not even a major issue, that was, you know, all of
a.sudden on the f~ont page of the newspaper.
And t6ey were never meant to be decision meetings.
only decision m~etings were the onea that the President
was going to make, the decisions in. And so we just decided
that we w6uld continue the probessand people ~ouldbe
engaged in arguing out options. But we weren't going to have
such large meetings with so many people because apparently
they weren't mature enough or responsible enough to
understand the context of the meetings~ And so
T~e
Q And you asked Ira then to give you and the
President those -- kind of a second track of briefings and
meetings of here -- heie is where we are, as the economic
plan was going forward.
MRS. CLINTON: So the meetings continued.
I'mean,
gosh. We ha~ mfilions of meetin~s.
But we also found that
it was very difficult to organize a large meeting effectively
for the President because he was in the midst of the budget
stuff. And there was a lot of other things going on. And he
didn't need to hear, you know, so and so debate somebody else
over something. ;He .needed to know what our consensus was.
:
.
,
So it~was a~ much a process issue for m~ as a, you
know, concern abouf getting thrown off track because we'd
have to stop to respond.
I didn't ,think that part of the
process was working. I thought the disagreements ~nd the
discussions should continue trr be carried out vigorously.
But then as
'~he
President's advisors, we ought to
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reach a consengli~.
And ~e ~ught to present -- ifcthere was a
it ought to be presented.
But rather than subj,cting the President to 20 variations on
the theme, subject him to two or three.
v~ry sttong minority point of view,
A VOICE:
Q
We learned that from the budget.
Yeah.
MRS. CLINTON:
I mean, it 'just didn't work.
A VOICE: ·We got him·right at that time of year.
His days, were insane. And they;~ere going 14, 15 pours.
MRS ..CLINTON:
A'VOICE:
It was crazy.
It was horribie.
Q Yeah. And -~' and didn't Secretary Bentsen go to
him at one point. and say, "You' r,e not getting enough sleep.
I've seen you -~ yo~'re no~ding off in meeting~.· You are
gone.
You can't de that?"
MRS. CLINTON:
I don't know. that that happened.
But, I mean, I told him that.
Q
Did'you ever tell him that?
MRS. CLINTON:
Q
Yeah.
Because, I mean
What'd you say to him?
MRS. CLINTON: Well, just that he needed more
sleep. And we all did.- I mean, it wasn't just the
President.
I mean, people came off the campaign.
They went
right into the transition. We had a mile-long agenda. And
everybody had just been' working· as --' as -- beyond what'·
anybody·bould expect~ Plus, we had a 25 percent staff, you
know, reduction.
So'we were doing three, four; five times more than
previous White H~us~s had done, pushing a huge agenda with 25
percent fewer people, most of whom were dead tired from the
campaign. And w~ -- you know, we really did have to kind of
get folks rested up. And that included the President.
Q
The day
fast-forwarding to August 5th, which
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was the day·the House. voted on the econo~ic plan. ~nd it was
the final.vot~. And you were working out an arrangement with
Martin Lancasteri the.North Carolina Congressman.
And I think -- I mean, he's -- I'have talked to him
about this and to.a number of other people. And there was
this whole question, "Is there going to be another tax other
than the ci~arette tax?" 'And you call~d him, I ·think from
your car~ And he had talked to the President. 'And he talked
to some other people. And he wanted.an assurance that there
would be another' tax. Do you remember .that? .
. MRS. CLINTON: I think I remember talking to him.
I.don't know when it was.
I d6n't have any idea of that.
Q It was' right at that last day. And he feels
that the inference was that the second ·tax is going to be an
alcohol tax.
MRS. CLINTON:
Q
I -- I -- I think that's true.
MRS. CLINTON:
.Q
That was never said.
That was never said to anybody .
What did you sai to him?
Do you remember?
MRS. CLINTON': I don't remember.
But I told him
that that was not the only way we were going to raise some
money, that -- that we had at least one other way that we
were looking at and a couple of other possibilities.
But the
tobacco would not be the only way.
.
.
A VOICE:
Everybodi was careful not to say that.
MRS. CLINTO'N:
Yeah.
That was never said.
A VOICE: That was a trap.
included, they would all get killed .
.Q. Yeah.
He knew if alcohol was
You'd never get anything.
,
MRS .. CLINTON:
Q
Well, yeah.
That's what he wanted.
MRS. CLINTON:
But-
That's·what he wanted.
Well, yeah.
I mean, I -- but -- but
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it just -- it just -~ I mean, I ~emember talking to him on
several occasions, not just that one that you referred to.
And, you know, from the very beginning, we al,l said _.. . and I
think we were very straightforward in saying~- there was
~oing to be a tobactO tax.
'
And, in fact, I had meetings with other members of
states where we talked about how much 'it
was going to be. He just -- and apparently there was some
miscommunication, among the members of the House who were from
the tobacco states because that was one of my early lessons
that I dealt with only a few of the members. And they were
supposed to be the ones to go and deal with the entire
tobacco caucus.
tobacco~producing
And so we had what we thought was an agr'eement
about what the level of tax was going to be, how it was going
to ,be presented, etcetera. Then, aS,we get ,into the budget
J:;>attle, folks are scrambling around, looking for cover or
lo<?king for whatever deal they can get.' ,They start saying to
us, "Well, so and so never told me that." W,ell, so and so
tells me that they had a meeting where it was all discussed.
So there was a lot of political maneuvering going
on. But we -- we always said there was going to be ,a tobacco
tax. And we always said there was going to be something else
but were never 'specific about it. So -- but people hear what
they want to h!=ar. '
"
Q And, of course, it came out to be a one percent
tax on those that ~re not in alliances. Correct?
MRS. CLINTON:
corporations.
Right.
Yeah.
The self-insured
Q Right. And he feels that he got lead down the
garden path or whatever that's worked. What --'I -- let me
ask you a really important question. And that -- this -
after the economic plan and even, up into this day, there is
this debate, about the ~~ the kind of question of the
presidency,' whether you'succeed'by legislation, managing
congress.'
.
I think the consultants have written some memos on
this -- that the Congress is the new Soviet Union and that
you manage it in the same way versus the idea of the
presidency as a moral podium or where you get up and make
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larger purposeful statements.
Have you talked.to your husband about where do we
.fall on that? What do we do? And how does it work? It's
clearly a vital issue. And I want to -- I really would love
to understand yo~r discussions and thinking.
MRS. CLINTON: I don't think we think it's an
either-or issue. I think that's another one of those false
choices that people love to pose because it seems to define
the universe, when in effect, you have to do both if youIre
going to have a successful presidency.
.
I mean, we had a very·succ~ssful bully-pulpit
rhetorical president with Reagan. 'And the infrastructure of
the countr'y ,in many ways was severely damaged by his -- his
legislative polici~s.
I mean, he could manage Congress. But
he managed it for the wrong ends in my view. And he could do
a great bully-pulpit speech.Bu~ it often wasn't connected
to any action.
So, I mean, you -- you ca~
you can even have
both. But th~y can produce the kirid of results you want~ So
I think that certainly from my perspective -- and I believe
the President's idea is the same --i~ you've got to try to
do both.
I mean, yOu have to try to set out a vision and
have a sense of valu~s in where the country ought to be going
and of individual's responsibility.
But you also have to
produce results.; .r mean, at the end all those ~ords just
flow into the ai~.···
'.
.' .
Q Was· there' a point where this became clear or
clearer that that.' s -- that you have to do both? You can't
define ~ presid~ricy one way or the Other because as you
landed here in Washin~ton, the promise of the economic plan
- ho vacations, 14 hour days and longer -- there's
there's, you know, that -- aren't those moments to take stock
and say, "w~ita'minute. What are we doing here? How does
this fit?"
MRS. CLINTON: But see, I think-- I think that's
- I think that's a -- no.
I don't think that's a fair
characterization because I mean, what I -- what I think we
did in an effort to try to get the agenda up and going and
try to understand the Congress', which was an impo;rtant part
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"
of the task, was
forget about the
the bully-pulpit
just overwhelmed
,
for a while, for, some months, to kind,of
importahce of melding the -- the message and
with the legislative agenda because we were
by the mechanics for the first six months.
I mean, you know, there was a lot of th,ingswe had
to ' figure out. I mean" who in the Congress do you rea lly
look to for good ,guidance and advice. I mean --I mean, you
know, Senator Byrd -- he's pretty hard to argue with. He had
a very different view about ~ow to handle the sti~ulus
package than others. We made a choice that in retrospect was
not the right choice. Those are things you live and learn,
you know.
And so we got -~ we had to kind of figure out the ,
mechanics and to kind of understand how to maneuver through
the system. And I think that by July or so it was clear that
we had lost the double focus that you always need to have'. I
mean, you've got, to keep telli'ng people what it is you're
trying to do and how you're 'trying to get there while you do
the mechanical part of trying'to get ,the results through the
Congress.
But, I mean, the results speak for themselves. If
we hadn't gotten,the budget through and it hadn't been the
kind of budget that it was, we could make speeches from now
until doomsday .. 'Ahd that wouldn't necessarily result in
positive chan~es. '
,
"
'Q There
there isn't a moment when the two of
you talked about that 'issue of, "HeYi we need to dO.both.
And we need to understand both of them' and how they collide
in the interactiori" and S9 __ II
'
MRS. CLINTON:
constantly.
Q
We talked about it constantly,
I'm looking for that moment that's really
interesting:
, MRS. CLINTON:
Q
(Laughter)
Ik,!)ow.
I know.' (Laught,er)
MRS. CLINTON:
I know, Bob.
But, I mean, -- ,it
just
Q
Okay. ';i,ou
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MRS. CLINTON:
Q
I just sort of rolls along.
Right.
MRS. CLINTON: I mean, it's; you know -- you know,
arouhd th~ dinner table before I go to bed, picking
up the phone' in tria middle of the day.; I mean, it's just -
there's no -- you know, there's no dramatic moment that it
occurs.
~itting
Q
(Laughter)
MRS. CLINTON:
Q
It's just 'constant.'
A book editor or a newspaper editor
MRS. CLINTON:
I know:,.
I know.
Q -- reads that -~ that sentence. And you know
and'I say, "The Clintons talked about this in a rolling,
endless, . you know -_.",
MRS. CLINTON:
Q
Q
(Laughter)
And it goes, "What happened?"
MRS. CLINTON:
'mean, it
They go,. nOh.,"
Yeah.
I know.
What happened and wheD?
it'
,
MRS. CLINTON:
I know.
Is .there'
okay.
I
'
That~s all I can teli you.
,
Q Let - let:me see if I'canhelp'ldcate some of
those moments that may trigger the recollection.
In doing
the run up to the health care speech September 22rid -- as I
understand it, the drafting was very interesting~ And you
and your husband looked at some of the early d~afts· and -
and were not happy with them. And I think they even -- he
even declared one of the pedestrian, ,that it didn't soar.
And then the NSC guy -- what's his name? Jeremy Rozner
(phonetic) -- , "
MRS. CLINTON:
Q
fact, did.
Oh, right. ' Right.
--:Was brought in to 'give i t some lift:and in
'Do you remember that process and
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\',"
~RS~CLINTON:
That sounds like every speech he'.s
. ever gi~err~
(L~ughter)I mean" you know, he just --he
really has to get into his speeches, you know, before he
openly~
Q That's right. But I
That was a great spe,ech.
MRS. CLINTON:
Q
It
wa~
I mean, I say this
a great speech.
The~e was somet~ing about the energy of it that
MRS. CLINTON: B~t that's.:because there was so much
of him in it. I mean, he-
A VOICE:
MRS.
Q
"
Talk about· a journey.
C~INTON:
Yes.
That's right:
The famous
journey~
MRS. CLINTON: ' That's right.
,Exactly.
That's right.
Q Help me how you look - you two looked at the
early drafts of that and said, "Look. This is what we have
to do in this."
MRS. CLINTON: Well, I think ,that was -- if you're
looking for 'a moment, a moment when you knew you had to'
combine both the ~ision of where he w~nted this journey to
lead and the ~etails about what would'be at, the end of it if
we took it together. And so there was a sense in which the
moment had come after a very tough first nine months and. I '
think a remarkable accomplishment with the budget against a
lot of odds to really lay down the marker about, you know,
what it is we were going to do together.
So we' spent, 'a lot of time talking it through. And
I -- you know, I'm sure that '-- and I :can't remember all the
meetings, we had and all the drafts that'~e looked at.
But,
you know, it finally began to take on'the ,form that he
wan~ed.
Ahd then he really spent 'countless hours going over
it~hd, you know, givin~ it his own voice.
A VOICE:
(Inaudible) wasn't in the teleprompter.
,',I'
MRS. CLINTON:
That's right.
That's right.
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Q
The"':- the what?
MRS. CLINTON:
Q 'Oh; yeah.
It wasn't in the teleprompter.
This is the
which was amazing,
'stunning.
MRS. CLINTON:
Q
I know.
Well, see, I knew something
What did he say to you afterwards?
MRS. ,CLINTON: Well, I ~new that -- I'm up there,
sitting there. And'I see him get up. And I -- I see him
turn around and talk to Gore. And then I think Gore motions
to you. And you shoot out. And then I see him standing
there kind of looking at the crowd. And I knew something. was
wrong.
But I didn't know -- I mean', ~verything raced
through my mind. I thought maybe he's seen somebody in the
audience who looks threatening or something. And George is
going to get the, security.' Or, you know -- I didn't know
what was happening.
Q
Sure.
MRS. CLINTON: Then when he "starteq., you .. know, ,I .
,knew that there was something happening~ But I didn't know.
He t,old me later ,that what was even more distracting than not
having the speech was when they were racing through the
speech to' get to the next -- to the real ,speech, when they
were, running through the old sp~ech.
So not only is he having ,to ~eep his concentration
and keep his eye contact and move through the chamber to
relate to the members, he has to block from his vision the
running lines and remember his speech on two screens.
Q
That '.s right.
MRS. CLINTON: It was -- but, you know, it's -- I
mean, this is something that I said to him later. I said
you know, I've always believed one of my -- my husband's
problems ,with some people is th~t he makes things look easy.
I m~an, he does -- you know, he's not -- he doesn't talk
about the personal struggle or the political struggle.' So
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here ,he is doing something that -- I mean', I don' t know what
tiny percent "of the people in politics or even in America
could do and does it without breaking' a sweat, delivers the
speech beautifully, doesn't complain about it.
He didn't tell ~e about it.
I didn't know about
it.
I mean, I didn't -- I was just so happy about the
speech., I thought it was a wonderful speech.
I didn't know
abput it until later when somebody told me about it. ,He
didn't say anything.
It was like a non-event to him.
I
mean, it was something he had
it was a challenge he ,had to
deal with, so he did.
And sometimes I think he wouid be better served if
he would convey a little bit more about the obstacles that he
,has to overcome so that people get ,a sense of how difficult
,what he's doing, is. He really makes things look too easy.
He then gets taken for, granted. And then people hold him to
continually higher and higher expectations which are totally
A 'VOICE: And then they can round things off
because he's making them smoother.
MRS. CLINTON:
Yeah.
And, you know -
(End of tape)
Q
-- you're in.
MRS. CLINTON: That's right.' And then you resent
the people because they somehow made you think you COUld.
psychologi6ally~ it's very
It's a very -- it's a
interesting.
Q' Okay.
care speech?
.what did you say to him after the health
MRS. CLINTON: Oh, I was just thrilled.
I thought
it was wonderful.
I thought it was one of" the best, speeches
that he's 'ever given and I thought;one of the most important
speeche~ any president had ever given.
I was -- I -- I was
just incredibly p~oud of him.'
A VOICE: He gave a
yo~ all came back to the
house. Right? And had a -- there was a reception 'or
whatever (inaudible).
.
..
I;.
~
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MRS. CLINTON: Oh, ,yeah. 'That's right. There
we had a couple' hundred people here. That.' s right.
A
VOIC~:
He talked to the staff .
. Q For the first time, right?
(Laughter)
.MRS. CLINTON: He talked to the staff about how
why we were all here. It was really a mov1ng -'"':' we had
(inaudible).
Q
That night?
A VOICE:
Q
Yeah.
Right after
Do you remember what he said.?
A VOICE:
N:o.
But it was very moving.
.MRS. CLINTON: The gist iS,of what we -- you.know,
this 'is why we came here' and what we are working for.
And it
was very -- yeah. That's right.
i
When 'he was drafting the state of, the Union for
this year and the -- the -- you know, "I will veto __ II
Q
MRS~' CLINTON:
Q
how are you?
the veto threat'.
A VOICE:
Q
Mm-hmm.
There was s6me -- Maggie,
. How are you doing?
Good to see you.
MRS. CLINTON:
Hi, Maggie.
,
Q
Made it dodge the Wall ,Street Journal bullet.
MRS. CLINTON:
\
.
sch~dule,
You need me?
A VOICE: We're running -- yeah -- slightly behind
as you might imaginef
MRS. CLINTON:
Q
Okay.
Let me finish
(in~~dible).
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·MRS. CLINTON: . Well, we'll be
A VOICE:
room (phonetic).
I don't know
I'll be in the
MRS. CLINTON:
-~
dip
Dip room (phonetic).
A VOICE: .Or (inaudible) .
. MRS. .CLINTON:
Okay.
We'll find you.
A VOICE: We're ready.
Q ·~Okay. In the veto thr~at -- and apparently, it
was Gergeri who thought that w~s a bad idea to threaten :the
vet.o~
And there was some meeting with Mitchell and. Foley.
And he-,...·and Gore asked, "What do you two think?" And
Mitchell said, "No. I think it's fine to threaten the.veto."
.And .Foley was silent ~ And' then Foley, had some reservations.
And they brought Foley to you. Do yo~recall that? And he
- he voic;ed' -- I don't w.ant tp. get you. in .trouble. It's just
that
MRS. CLINTON:
No . · I don't
J; don't
Q 'Yeah.
MRS . CLINTON : I just don'; t remember. that.
when was that? When was that?
Q
I don't
It was a c6uple of ~~yi before the speech.
.
A VOICE: .A few days -:.... one or two. days before we
had a leadership 'meeting to go over the speech.
Q . Yeah.
A VOICE·:
Q
'But I don't -
Yeah.
MRS •. CLINTON.:
I don,' t. remember that.
Q He voiced some -- he said. I ·have some
reservations. And-
MRS. CLINTON:
I just don't remember.
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Q '--.and whether it was effective to~
MRS. CLINTON:"
t just don't remember.
I thought. it
was .a good idea. But I -- I just do,n't remember.
Q
You thought
MRS. C,LINTON:
Q
i1;:
was an essential idea.
Yeah.
Didn't you?
MRS. CLINTON: I did~ Yeah. I. think you had to
lay down a' marker. ' 'And I think it's worked. ,I mean,' I think
that, you know, univers~l coverage is ~ine gui non ,(phonetic)
of health care reform. And
A
~OICE:
"
~e
have a consensus for it either.
MRS. CLINTON: .we wouldn't have a
I mean, it -
we
what -- you know, ., I love hearing reports about how,
"Well, everybody knows now that the CcmgrEassis going to do
something, II you know . But that ,·was totally unclear
(Laughter)' just a few months ago. And what they would do and
whether' it would cover ~verybody was certainly' unclear. And"
so I think it was a ve'ry,; very important statement.
Q The most interesting question about whether the
best policy is the best polit;ics. And there. are 'some people
- '. I -- I think Panneta is one who frequently argues. The
best' -- let'SCQme up with the ,best policy. And then the
politics will follow to our advantage. And, obviously,
sometim'es that does'n'twork~ What do you -- how do you look
at that, 'such a great, interesting " import'ant governing
question? ' '
,
. >,'
MRS .. CLINTON: 1-- I agree wiih L~on.
If thatV~
what Leon says., I 'agree with it. I mean, I think you've got
to -- I think, first of all, you've got to decide' what you
t.hink is the;,be!?t policy. But then you have to temper it
. with what you think you can achieve of the, b,ast policy on
what kind of a time table.
But it's very hard to fight the way we have had to
fight for ,the last year for policies that we did not think
were good. I ~ean, if it'was ~trictly a political policy, 'I
don't think we could have sustained the effort that all of us
have put in in, the last,' you know, ,~5 months.• ,
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So I'really believe· that you -~.~ou know, you go
with what you think is the right thing. And you fight like
.crazy f6~ it. And you krio~ there's going to be compromises.
I mean, that's inevitabl~.
But if you've.got a core set of
beliefs that you don't compromise off of, you can peel back a
lot of the other policy that's,around it in order to get to
:tha~.
And I -- I think that's w~at'you should do.
'Q But there, is a lot of maddenlng politics that go
-- when one senator or one congressman can essentially kill
'
the BTU tax, for insta~ce, wh~t's your reaction to end that?
MRS. CLINTON: Mm-hmm. Well, that's just part of
process.
i meah, I don't think ,there's anything new
about that.
th~
Q you eve~ have a conversation with the vice~
president 'about ~-,because early on last year he was one of
the ones,' "We, have to have a bo:ld economic plan. We need to
really cut the deficit.", We -- the ~TU tax was' like a holy
(inaudible) to them. And then it got sacrificed on the alter
of politics.
MRS. CLINTON: 'Mm-hrom." But that happ~n~.
I mean,
know, I -~ I -- yeah.
I mean, i think everybod~ knows
that.
I mean, people fight.
And ~- and certainly he fought
hard for what he thought was the right thing to do.
But he's
a very realistic political player in all of thiS. ,And I -~ I
think he understood what we had to do to get as close to what
was the "best policy in his vie,w'.' So I don't, think that
bothered him.
~ou
Q Did anyone ever
any of the cabinet members or
of the ~taff ever talk to you about there's too much of a
campaign mentality in the White House?
;~
.....
MRS. CLINTON: Nobody's ever talked to me about
that personally. 'I've read that people have said that.
But
nobody's ever talked to me personally about it.
See, I had a
,'different't~ke bn it.
.
I mean, I think you have to run a campaign for
I don't see ~ny way
to get around that.
I mean, you don't go off onto some
hil'ltop and come down with your policy and then throw it out
and hope that the world receives it well.
I mean, you have
to convince people to vote for it. And that's what the
policy-j~st like ybu do for electioris.
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'campaign is.
So I ,~- I never understood ,the criticism of that.
I think you -- the~e is a diif~renc~ between campaigning in
'election mode and campaigning for legislation. And there
needed to be ~ transition. You know, in a political' campaign
Y9u'~e often ona very short timetable., Yo~"ve got elections
every week that you have to try to w~n or lose. And lots of
times, when you're campaigning for legislation, you have to
ta'ke a very long view.
You have to kind of, know what the end
,gain is.
And I think we've done a pretty good job on that
with health care so that a lot of what we have seen is
beginning to play out.
I mean, we -- one of the things we
learned - thank p " George.
"
Q
~ye
, George.,'
, MRS. CLINTON:
the bud get -~
Q
Now we can
th~ngs
~
:One,'of,.the
"
we learned from
really:talk~'
MRS. CLINTON: One of the things' we learned from
the' budget battle'is that~yoti couldn't just corne up with what
you thought was the best policy and dump, it on the Congress
and say, "Take it or leave it.~ And I think there was -- you
know, there wer~ a 'lot of iessons in that. ' ind I certainly
picked them up. ,
So, fro~ my perspective I wanted a' piece of health
'care legis~atioh that would give a lot of room for Congress
to put its stamp on it., I wanted a lot of ownership~
s6
there were very few things in that 1,300 page bill that are
sacrosanct, you know. There's a lot of moveable parts. And
I'm not waving the bill around iaying, you knbw, "Do this or,
you know, you're betraying, the 'future of America." That is
not the way I think that has to be done~
Q And'd~d -- did -- was it easy to corne to that
realizatiori? Sbme people ha~e said it was a bit of an
awakening for you personally to
MRS. CLINTON: No.
I fight' ha~d for what I believe
is the best policy.
But -- and I think some people confused
my ·vigorous advocacy on behalf of certain points of view with
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some kind of inflexibility or even idealism. But my belief
is you've got to subject everything ..to a very tough argument
and then, see where you are and then figure out howl'You
explain it.
'Q Help me with an ending to this book.
And -- we
talked about the decision when your husband was deciding to
run for ~resident and youi -- your observ~tion that if -- it
wasn't going to be easy. It was going tb be a bi'g change in
his life. And :-- and the notion· is you said -- about a pain
threshold.
I
MRS.'CLINTON:
Min-hmm.
Q That it's, not easy to run.
i tin the tax machine .' Other:"'-'
MRS ..-.CLINTON:
The Republicans run
And -- 'and,still do.
Q still do. still do. Say Qn yoti~ v~catlon, when
you were out in Califorhia jbstrecentli or her~, wae there a
time'when you two talked about::Kind of here's where we've,
come, here '.s what, tp.at pain thresp.old -- they keep raising
the bar on:us all the time -- on what· that is and an
assessment of where you are, that you ,made and that he made?
Is there such a moment?
MRS. CLINTON:
Q
I hope so.
MRS. CLINTON:
Q
There's no moment.
Okay.
But it's
it's a -- I'm sorry.
(Laughter)
MRS. CLINTON: But·-- but -- no. But it -- but:it
obviously is something we talk about because we have been
surprised at the continuing barrage of.attacks,that are
politically motivated, and are aimed at undermining what he's
working for;
,
And :i t ~ s -:-- it's done a couple of things that I
think are kind of interesting. It's reinforced our belief
that what we're trying to do is very important and that it
really do.es undermine the status of a lot of entrenched
interests to ,the extent that they feel compelled to
c6nstantly come after us ..
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" In a funny way that's a great compliment. ,I mean,
so long as you don't"ta~eall of this personally,' which on my
good days I don't. But, you know, some days it's more
difficult when you're being accused of things .. But it's not
personal . . I mean, it really isn't. It is -- it is much a
part of the transition t6at we talked about.at the end about
of our la~t conversation.
And because we are these transition figures living
in a transition time, we are going to be the targets for all
kinds of insecurities and anxieties and opposition. And so I
"think that our attitude now is that we .are doing. what we
believe in ..
We ththk it's right for the country. We think it's
beginning to show resuits for the country' economically, even
in the health care field.:Because 6f what we've done 'changes
are beginning to happen that never would have without our
impetus~
So it's kind of strengthened our resolVe, if
anyth'ing, that this is a very importp.ntmoment.in t.fme for
this country and for us and for his presidency. And we're
just:going to take advantage of it and do everything we can.
Q How dO'es it feel, though, when some of the stuff
, about personal life comes in that I happen to' know as a
journalist is -'- I don't mind saying -- shitty journalism, .
just doesn'~ meet the standard .. You wouldn't -- you wouldn't
it's. just awful.
MRS. CLINTON:
Q
But, Bob
And I -- I.
MRS. CLINTON:
Yeah.
Q I admit I can.analyze the journalism. I'm
interested, really, in the' core of your feel,ing abou.t it when,
you pick up some of that.
MRS. CLINTON: 'Well,I mean,
You've got to
I
mean, the think that has been frustrating for us is the :fact
. that so many people are willingto'play the game that is
being played and be manipulated by it. But we'-- we knew
that this was likely to occur starting back in -- I think it
was like"the summer of '91, around'the time Bill was getting
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seriously pumped·for running for President.
'.'
.Hetalked to somebody in the Bush White House who
'he had worked with as a goverhor -~ called him and 'said, "I
understandtha't; people ar,e talking about running for,
President and all that. You ought to wait until ' 9'6, ,you
know. And you dould walk in. .' It'll be a free shot, you
know, open see~;," etcetera.
Bill ,thought it. was a. very odd phone call. !,1rid he
said, "What is it you're trying to tell me?" And the guy
said, "Well, l~t's just cu~ the"-- ~ill in the blank. He
said, "We've do'ne a lot of, looking at this race. . And' your
profile's candidate is one and one of the very ,few that ,could
cause us any trouble. And. we just want you to know if you .
. get into this race, we will"'do ,everything we can to destroy'
you personally,·"
. . .
''
I
And Ireme'mbe:rWhen he told .me about that. . Ie.
thought,"Mi g6sti. They must be really ,scared of you."And
then we he'ard a lot' of' other sort of.'. internal rumblings
because Sununu had worked with Bill and kn~w.him.
Q
Is·-- {s I t Sununu who called, him?
MRS. CL+NTON:
~ ;,
Q
No.'
Can you tell me who?
MRS, CLINTON:
.
Q .Can
independently?
,
y~u
.
+ can't
No.
tell.
tell me so I can pursue it
' .
MRS. : CLINTON:
Q
I
.'
No.
No.
I might ,"later.
Okay.
MRS. CLINTON: Let's-~ let's finish health care.
and -- I'd love somebody t o p u r s u e -
And
A VOICE:
We've got to wrap .
. MRS. CLINTON:
Q
Yeah.
I kn,ow.
y.eah.
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MRS'.' CLINTON: I I d love somebody to pursue some of'
this stuff. But -- but I was telling you -0 so ~- so -- so
- that was -- that was like a shot across the bow.
Q
Yeah.
MRS. CLINTON: And then lots of other things
related to that. He' gets to Ne~ HampShire as a governor from
the state of Arkansas. Nobody knows even where Arkansas is.
This i~ the fall of 1~1~ And these organi~ation~ start
running ads agaInst him in New Hampshire -:-- the same pe<?ple
that are part of this ongoing effort.
'
Now I don/t think any -- ei.ther of us knew the
extent to which they would carry this.
But it said to us
t~ese 'people are very scared . . And they can/t be scared of us
personally .
. ,Q
•
Mm-hmm.
MRS. CLINTON: And theycan/t be scared of my'
husband. Theytre scared of ',his ideas. They/rescared of his
.ability to connect with Americans so that we c~n start
.
getting our country back op the right ,track. That/s how ~e
saw it. And so in the: last, two years with all t~is stuff
that/s been dumped on us, that/s basically how we still see
it. Andthat/s what kind'ofkeeps us going.
I mean l you
know, being in public life today is a very burdensome
experience.
, .
Q
Talk
~
abou~
pain threshold.
,<
!
".
"
MRS. CLINTON: Yeah. But if you believe that ,
once a generation you get a chance to do something important
for the country. Like reversing what we sp,w as irrespoI')sible
economic policies or getting health care for Americans.
Heck,I mean, we/re not in a war~
Q .What does he say to you at the worst moments of
this.
..
:MRS.: CLINTON: He says, "We/re going to keep on
going.' Theyi re never going to stop us." And'he never ever
gives' up. He has a resilience 'and an optimism and a
conviction. And he understands'what/s going on in 'the'
country.
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28
And he gets a little bit, I think, put out with
those who are comfortable, who are elitist, who have their
heal th care', who are su¢cessful survivors of the economic
transition we've' be'en going through who don't understand what
is going' on in the middle ,class 'and ~he working.clqss of
America ,:the way that their. futures have just been hollowed
out an<::i .how' we have to r'ebuild that. '.
I me?in,' .1 t lsa sense of hope that has to pe
returned. But 'it has to' be accompanied with policies to
.support people again, to give them' a chance to,' you know,
lead the, kind of lives that if tqey work hard for they're
entitled to. I mean, we really believe that. I mean, this
is. -- you know, go. back, and r'ead the -- the -- th~ single
thing that made the biggest impression on my husband during
the~ time he ran for President ~a:s the Phila.delphia Enquirer
series on the middle class
Q
Yes ... ,Right.
Right.
MRS. CLINTON: --:because it absolutely confirmed
his own personal observations and exper.ience ..: 'That's what
keeps him going. He keeps me going. Hekeepseverybody
going.;
A VOICE:
MRS.
Q
We've'got to.go.
CLINTO~:
I've got to go.
Okay.
* * * * *
i
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lissa Muscatine - Press Office
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
First Lady's Office
Press Office
Lissa Muscatine
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1993 - 1997
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
<a href="http://clinton.presidentiallibraries.us/items/show/36239" target="_blank">Collection Finding Aid</a>
<a href="http://catalog.archives.gov/id/7431941" target="_blank">National Archives Catalog Description</a>
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
2011-0415-S
Description
An account of the resource
<p>Lissa Muscatine first served in the Clinton Administration as a speechwriter. Within the First Lady’s Office, she served as Communications Director to the First Lady.</p>
<p>Lissa Muscatine’s records consist of materials from First Lady Hillary Clinton’s Press Office, highlighting topics such as health care, women’s rights, the Millennium Council, Hillary Clinton’s 2000 Senate campaign, and deal extensively with press interviews given by the First Lady; her domestic and foreign travel; and speeches and remarks, on a wide variety of topics, given by her before and during her time as First Lady. The records include interview transcripts, press releases, speeches and speech transcripts.</p>
Provenance
A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource.
Clinton Presidential Records: White House Staff and Office Files
Publisher
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Clinton Presidential Library & Museum
Format
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Adobe Acrobat Document
Extent
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1,324 folders in 27 boxes
Text
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Original Format
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Paper
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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FLOTUS Press Office Interview Transcripts Volume III 02/02/94 - 05/31/94 [Binder]: [Bob Woodward 04/13/94]
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Box 4
<a href="http://clintonlibrary.gov/assets/Documents/Finding-Aids/Systematic/2011-0415-S-Muscatine.pdf" target="_blank">Collection Finding Aid</a>
<a href="http://catalog.archives.gov/id/7431941" target="_blank">National Archives Catalog Description</a>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
First Lady's Office
Press Office
Lissa Muscatine
Identifier
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2011-0415-S
Provenance
A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource.
Clinton Presidential Records: White House Staff and Office Files
Publisher
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Clinton Presidential Library & Museum
Format
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Adobe Acrobat Document
Medium
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Reproduction-Reference
Date Created
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11/26/2012
Source
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2011-0415-S-flotus-press-office-interview-transcripts-volume-iii-02-02-94-05-31-94-binder-bob-woodward-04-13-94
7431941