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THE WHITE HOUSE
WASH INGTON
MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION
SUBJECT:
Meeting w i t h Former Secretary o f State Henry
K i s s i n g e r and Three Others re China fe}
PARTICIPANTS:
The President
The Vice President
Warren Christopher, Secretary
of S t a t e
Leon Panetta, Chief o f S t a f f
Anthony Lake, N a t i o n a l
S e c u r i t y Advisor
Samuel R. Berger, Deputy
N a t i o n a l S e c u r i t y Advisor
Robert S u e t t i n g e r , NSC
(notetaker)
Henry K i s s i n g e r , former
Secretary o f State
Alexander Haig, former
Secretary o f State
Maurice Greenburg, Chairman,
American I n t e r n a t i o n a l
Group
John Whitehead, former Deputy
Secretary o f State
J u l y 13, 1995; 2:35-3:10 p.m.
The Oval O f f i c e
DATE, TIME
AND PLACE:
(Greetings and i n t r o d u c t i o n s )
The Vice President: The l a s t time I saw A l Haig, we were both
out campaigning i n the middle o f a f i e l d i n New Hampshire. f&)
Gen. Haig:
I t h i n k there were two o r three people t h e r e — i t
was l i k e a graveyard. And the c o l d e s t n i g h t o f t h e year. f€H
The President:
When d i d you get back? f&)
Dr. K i s s i n g e r : I got back on Friday. I t h i n k John (Whitehead)
got back a couple days e a r l i e r . We were i n China f o r a meeting
of the U.S.-China Society, which meets every year. f&)
The President:
(6)
Where do you t h i n k we are i n the r e l a t i o n s h i p ?
Dr. K i s s i n g e r : Well, as you know, we have never asked f o r a
meeting w i t h you before but decided t o do so on t h i s occasion.
We are a l l f o u r o f us deeply concerned about t h e c u r r e n t s t a t e o f
Sino-American r e l a t i o n s . I've been t o China 25 times o r so,
beginning back i n 1971. And i n a l l t h a t time, I've never seen
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such p o t e n t i a l f o r d i s i n t e g r a t i o n of r e l a t i o n s . So one evening,
when we were s i t t i n g around together i n B e i j i n g , we decided t o
request a meeting w i t h you. Since most of us are Republicans, we
considered i t best t o work more f o r m a l l y . f&)
The P r e s i d e n t : Well, I've j u s t signed the Base Closing r e p o r t ,
which w i l l probably end up c o s t i n g me 54 e l e c t o r a l votes i n
California.
f&)
Dr. K i s s i n g e r : I f the A d m i n i s t r a t i o n can move i n the d i r e c t i o n
of improving r e l a t i o n s w i t h China, we w i l l do what we can t o help
w i t h the Republicans i n Congress, who I b e l i e v e are behaving very
i r r e s p o n s i b l y on t h i s issue these days. I spoke t h i s morning
before the Senate Foreign R e l a t i o n s Committee, and I was very
c r i t i c a l of recent Congressional a c t i o n s toward China,
p a r t i c u l a r l y some o f the measures before Senator Helms, sponsored
by Republicans.
f&)
But t o get back t o our t r i p t o China. The e n t i r e time we were
t h e r e , we were exposed t o a l i t a n y of complaints. They s a i d t h a t
beginning w i t h President Bush's sale of F-16s t o Taiwan and
moving on through Tiananmen sanctions, other weapons sales and
p o l i c y changes, t o the d e c i s i o n t o allow Lee Teng-hui t o v i s i t
C o r n e l l , the U.S. has proceeded toward a "two Chinas" p o l i c y .
R e a f f i r m i n g our "one China" p o l i c y , which I d i d repeatedly, does
not reassure them any more. f€H
I t o l d them the d e c i s i o n on Lee Teng-hui was not a s t r a t e g i c
s h i f t but was a p o l i t i c a l d e c i s i o n , t r y i n g , among other t h i n g s ,
to avoid worse consequences w i t h Congress. They s a i d , even i f
t h a t ' s t r u e , once the sequence t h a t leads toward Taiwan
independence s t a r t s , i t can't be c o n t r o l l e d . And they won't
stand f o r i t . I f i t comes t o a choice between good r e l a t i o n s
w i t h the U n i t e d States and Taiwan's independence, they would
r a t h e r have bad r e l a t i o n s w i t h the U.S.
This case was put t o us
so i n c e s s a n t l y , and w i t h such c o n v i c t i o n , t h a t I take i t
s e r i o u s l y . And t h a t ' s why I'm here.
f€}
I got a c a l l from Lane K i r k l a n d — who's no f r i e n d of mine —
u r g i n g me t o take up the Harry Wu case w h i l e I was t h e r e — t r y
to i n t e r c e d e w i t h Chinese leaders. The Embassy also encouraged
us t o r a i s e i t , which we d i d . Recognizing t h e r e are l o t s of
p r a c t i c a l problems t h a t need t o be addressed, I d i d n ' t accuse
them of i l l e g a l i t y or gross i m m o r a l i t y i n a r r e s t i n g Harry Wu.
Rather, I s a i d I was concerned about i t s impact on Sino-American
r e l a t i o n s at a very d i f f i c u l t time. Their v e r s i o n of the s t o r y
was t h a t Wu appears t o be a p l a n t , a p r o v o c a t i o n t o d i s t u r b
r e l a t i o n s , which w i l l then provide the U.S. Government w i t h the
excuse i t needs t o continue on i t s chosen course toward "two
Chinas."
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I b e l i e v e t h a t i f we can a l l j u s t q u i e t down a l i t t l e b i t , not
hammer away a t them i n the press about how t h i s i s an example o f
t h e i r e v i l system, there i s at l e a s t a reasonable chance of Wu's
being released i n two or three weeks. fe)
So t h a t , Mr. President, i s the essence of my
report.
Gen. Haig:
I t h i n k they don't r e a l l y want a c o n f r o n t a t i o n w i t h
us. But the constant d r i p p i n g — F-16s, post-Tiananmen
s a n c t i o n s , human r i g h t s accusations, transparency questions, IPR
and now Taiwan — has r e a l l y got them. The Foreign M i n i s t e r was
very c o n s i s t e n t , very tough on the problem i n the Taiwan S t r a i t s .
I t ' s the -fj^rst time I've seen them engaging d i r e c t l y
EO 13526 1.4d
I f we have a major breach i n our r e l a t i o n s , and go t o sanctions
on t h i s or t h a t , I t h i n k we have t o be prepared f o r the i s o l a t i o n
of the U n i t e d States on t h i s issue. The Europeans are f u l l y i n t o
China and won't go along. The Japanese won't j o i n us i n any k i n d
of p u n i t i v e e f f o r t . Furthermore, we'd be f o r c i n g the Chinese
i n t o the arms of Russia and I r a n . That k i n d of a c o a l i t i o n could
be d e v a s t a t i n g . Looking at i t from the p e r s p e c t i v e of our longrun i n t e r e s t s , i t ' s very dangerous f o r us t o go on t h i s way.
I t ' s time f o r both sides to stop, take a deep b r e a t h and cool
t h i s d i s p u t e o f f . f&)
As Republicans, we have a s p e c i a l r e s p o n s i b i l i t y t o work on those
members of our p a r t y who are i n f l a m i n g the problem — they are so
volatile.
I t o l d G i n g r i c h t o get o f f t h i s w i c k e t . And he s a i d
t h a t he would.
fG}
Mr. President, you have got to get out and make a d e f i n i t i v e
statement about U.S.-China r e l a t i o n s . I t ' s a very d i f f i c u l t
t h i n g . I don't know. Can we do i t w i t h o u t l o s i n g face?
We
can't promise B e i j i n g t h a t w e ' l l never a l l o w another Lee v i s i t .
Mr. Greenburg: I b e l i e v e , Mr. President, t h a t i t ' s time f o r
q u i e t diplomacy.
I've been going t o China f o r 20 years, two or
three times a year. And I've never seen r e l a t i o n s as bad as they
are now.
We can't tamper w i t h the "one China" p o l i c y . They
t h i n k we've done so by deeds, i f not words. They see an e r o s i o n
i n the v a l i d i t y of the "Three Communiques." Anything t h a t
t h r e a t e n s the communiques, i n t h e i r view, i s bad.
I'm
p a r t i c u l a r l y concerned at the spreading e f f e c t o f t h i s d i s p u t e i n
Asia. We can't have an Asia p o l i c y unless China i s i n the midst
of i t .
I f our r e l a t i o n s w i t h China go awry, we could end up
d e s t a b i l i z i n g a l l of Asia.
fG}
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We've got to b r i d g e t h i s gap. They t h i n k we s t a r t e d the problem,
so we have t o take the i n i t i a t i v e .
fe^
The Harry Wu case i s a red h e r r i n g . I f the U n i t e d States takes
steps t o improve the o v e r a l l r e l a t i o n s h i p , I t h i n k the Chinese
w i l l work q u i e t l y t o l e t Wu out. But the more n o i s y the case
becomes, the more i t plays i n t o the hands of the h a r d l i n e r s i n
China.
f&)
Mr. Whitehead: Mr. President, I'm very alarmed about t h i s .
I
t h i n k there's an even s c a r i e r outcome p o s s i b l e . The Chinese
b e l i e v e we've v i o l a t e d the "Three Communiques" by l e t t i n g Lee
Teng-hui come to the United States. They never s a i d t h i s
d i r e c t l y , but they may now t h i n k they're f r e e t o v i o l a t e the
communiques, t o o . By t a k i n g Taiwan m i l i t a r i l y .
They may f e e l
t h a t they need t o take a c t i o n t o prevent Taiwan from becoming
independent.
I f they invade, or blockade Taiwan, w i l l we come t o
i t s defense? I know t h a t ' s a grim o u t l o o k , but t h a t ' s the road
we're heading down, i n my view. I t ' s time t o take a c t i o n , t o
change course.
(£
•}
Dr. K i s s i n g e r : I t ' s not j u s t t h a t they t h i n k we've broken the
"Three Communiques." When I met w i t h Premier L i Peng, he was
much more b l u n t . He asked me, does the United States see China
as our enemy? And I got the same question from the Foreign
M i n i s t e r . For whatever reason, they seem t o view the Lee v i s i t
as a harbinger of f a r more d i f f i c u l t r e l a t i o n s w i t h the U.S.
f€4
The P r e s i d e n t :
What do you t h i n k we should do?
f&)
Dr. K i s s i n g e r : I don't t h i n k we need t o do a n y t h i n g dramatic. I
t h i n k there's a sequence of steps t h a t both sides can take. Both
seem t o agree on what they are. I t ' s j u s t a matter of t a k i n g
them. I'm c o n f i d e n t they w i l l work — I t a l k e d t o Warren about
them.
Even on the question of m i s s i l e p r o l i f e r a t i o n t o Pakistan, I
don't t h i n k there's anything new happening. Although I hasten t o
add t h a t I don't know the basic f a c t s . tG}
But I agree w i t h my colleagues completely. E v e r y t h i n g depends on
the s t a t e of U.S.-China r e l a t i o n s . And I don't t h i n k they want a
confrontation.
fe)
Mr. Greenburg: I had, a meeting w i t h Xiao Rona (Deng fiong), Deng
Xiaoping's daughter.
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Gen. Haig: Not t o make t h i s worse, but whatever the Chinese hear
from you, t h e y ' l l hear something very d i f f e r e n t from the
Republicans.
I t ' s a c l a s s i c challenge: A d m i n i s t r a t i o n p o l i c y .
Congressional o p p o s i t i o n . fe-)
The Vice President: G i n g r i c h j u s t c a l l e d f o r w i t h h o l d i n g money
from the d e l e g a t i o n t o the Women's Conference i n B e i j i n g . fe)
The P r e s i d e n t :
Chinas." fe}
He also made i t p r e t t y c l e a r he f a v o r s "two
Well, I concede they are seeing t h i n g s i n t h e i r own way. And
t h e i r domestic problems and succession mean i t ' s the lowest
common denominator view. They can't seem t o stop asking t h a t the
r e l a t i o n s h i p be a one-way s t r e e t . I d i d n ' t s e l l F-16s, Bush d i d .
And i t was p r e t t y c l e a r why he d i d i t .
We're-making every e f f o r t
t o understand t h e i r domestic p o l i t i c a l s i t u a t i o n and f a c t o r i t
i n t o our p o l i c y . Why can't they do. the same f o r us? fe^
I d e l i n k e d MFN and human r i g h t s , and t h i n g s seemed t o be going
along p r e t t y w e l l . They were h e l p f u l i n Korea, working w i t h the
North. I n f a c t , I don't t h i n k we would have been able t o reach
an agreement w i t h o u t China's help. They also helped out a l i t t l e
b i t on MTCR l a s t year. fe)
But otherwise, t h i n g s have not g o t t e n b e t t e r .
EO 13526 1 4
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"And they get a l l the b e n e f i t s of our market. You know our
b i g g e s t f o r e i g n a i d program i s buying 30 percent o f t h e i r
e x p o r t s . fe)
The Vice President: They seem t o be so out o f touch,
sense t h a t i n your discussions w i t h them? fG-)
Dr. K i s s i n g e r :
I don't know.
Did you
I d i d n ' t get any o f t h a t .
fe)
The P r e s i d e n t : You know, when I brought i n t h e i r ambassador, I
t o l d him t h a t I understand t h i s issue i s a very s e n s i t i v e one f o r
them and t h a t I know we don't view a l o t o f t h i n g s about human
r i g h t s and democracy i n the same way. But I t o l d him t h i s i s a
c o u n t r y where a man can be allowed t o v i s i t h i s alma mater, make
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a speech, be p e r m i t t e d t o t r a v e l . Lee's not a c r i m i n a l . And
d i d n ' t ask him t o come t o Washington, i t wasn't an o f f i c i a l
visit.
fG)
we
But I understand where they're coming from. I t ' s OK, a laydown
t h a t we purchase 30-40 percent of t h e i r e x p o r t s , they f e e l
they've earned some k i n d of reward from us.
fe)
Dr. K i s s i n g e r : There were no economic t h r e a t s issued i n my
h e a r i n g . Part of the problem i s t h a t t h e i r perceptions are
shaped by t h e i r h i s t o r i c a l experience. On the one hand,
1,44
I remember once I was t r a v e l i n g i n China and went t o
the c i t y of Suzhou, where they have a l o t of canals. I s a i d t o
my hosts t h a t I understood Suzhou was c a l l e d "the Venice of
China." They s a i d t h a t , a c t u a l l y , Venice should be c a l l e d "the
Suzhou of Europe." fe)
On the other hand, when you add i n the experience of the 19th
century, w i t h c o l o n i a l domination and d i v i s i o n , i t ' s a very
p a i n f u l memory, even today. They don't l i k e h e a r i n g Western
p r e s c r i p t i o n s f o r t h e i r problems. (e)
So when problems a r i s e i n r e l a t i o n s , they blame us f i r s t .
I'm
a f r a i d , under the circumstances, we have t o take i n t o account the
i d i o s y n c r a s i e s t h a t have b u i l t up over 5,000 years.
fe)
The President:
I tried.
fe)
Dr. K i s s i n g e r : I t h i n k t h a t you had a r i g h t t o expect more
progress on human r i g h t s i n r e t u r n f o r your d e c i s i o n . Maybe they
d i d n ' t see i t t h a t way.
But the Taiwan question i s too b i g an
issue f o r them. They don't f e e l they can compromise. They view
i t i n the c o n t e x t of t h e i r h i s t o r y w i t h Japan, t o o . I t was taken
away from them 100 years ago. Now they see i t happening again —
they can't back away. fG)
could not back away from a p o l i c y d e c i s i o n w i t h o u t p o l i t i c a l
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damage from your opponents. They s a i d t h a t you have i t i n your
power t o prevent another Lee v i s i t .
I t doesn't have t o happen
again unless you say so.
f&)
Gen. Haig: We're not here t o blame you or side w i t h them.
There's a sea change going on i n terms of our r e l a t i o n s w i t h
China and Taiwan. And the Republicans are p a r t of the problem.
The President: I t ' s l i k e a funhouse. I got a l e t t e r the other
day, signed by Helms and Wellstone, D'Amato and Harkin — p o l a r
opposites, p o l i t i c a l l y , but saying the same t h i n g s about China.
I r e a l l y thought I was i n a funhouse. Domestically, you know,
we' re engaged i n some very fundamental debates on issues of great
importance.
Where our s o c i e t y i s going on issues l i k e w e l f a r e
and h e a l t h care. Everyone i s upset, saying p r e t t y extreme
things.
I can understand t h a t the Chinese would be i n a s i m i l a r
situation.
f&)
So what do you t h i n k i s the best we can do about Jiang Zemin
coming t o the UN i n October?
fG)
Dr. K i s s i n g e r : The f i r s t t h i n g i s f o r Warren t o t a l k t o the
Foreign M i n i s t e r .
That could lead t o a d i s c u s s i o n o f what each
side t h i n k s a "one China" p o l i c y r e a l l y means. Then you can
r a i s e your concerns — on human r i g h t s , n o n p r o l i f e r a t i o n . They,
i n t u r n , can t a l k " s t r a t e g i c a l l y " about Japan and I n d i a .
fe)
The
President:
EO 13526 1.4d
(e)
Dr. K i s s i n g e r : As they see i t , our problems w i t h China are less
s i g n i f i c a n t than t h e i r problems w i t h Japan and I n d i a . They love
t o t a l k about the b i g p i c t u r e , engage i n s t r a t e g i c d i a l o g u e .
And
I r e a l l y b e l i e v e t h a t i f you c o n s u l t w i t h them —
l e c t u r e them — they w i l l respond. fe)
not j u s t
As f a r as Jiang Zemin i s concerned, they understand f u l l y t h a t
i t ' s not i n t h e i r i n t e r e s t t o have him come here f o r a press
disaster.
I t h i n k we should work t o put t o g e t h e r a modest set of
achievements t h a t could come from such a v i s i t .
fG-)
The President: I'm very w o r r i e d t h a t the Harry Wu problem could
blow e v e r y t h i n g o f f the t r a c k s . That issue has r e a l legs,
politically.
I t i s p o t e n t i a l l y a very bad problem.
(€)
Dr. K i s s i n g e r : When I met w i t h Deng Rong l a s t November, we got
t o t a l k i n g about Fang L i z h i , the d i s s i d e n t who took refuge i n the
U.S. Embassy a f t e r Tiananmen. She was w e l l - b r i e f e d . She t o l d me
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we worked f o r a long time on a package deal t o get Fang out —
you take t h i s step, w e ' l l take t h a t . By the time we had worked
out the steps and Fang was released, the B e r l i n Wall was down,
the Soviet Union was f a l l i n g apart, Ceaucescu was dead.
The
w o r l d had changed. U n f o r t u n a t e l y , I don't know what a package
deal f o r Harry Wu might i n c l u d e . fe)
I know t h a t whatever we do, we have t o i n c l u d e a s i g n i f i c a n t
s t r a t e g i c component i n our discussions and avoid l e c t u r i n g them.
I t w i l l d r i v e them mad i f we t a l k n a r c o t i c s , human r i g h t s and
m i s s i l e s but not Russia, Japan and Southeast Asia. When we
t a l k e d t o them about these issues on our t r i p , we d i d n ' t come t o
great agreement -- i t was j u s t e x p o s i t i o n s . I f you can do t h i s ,
I'm sure you w i l l have success. fe)
Gen. Haig: On the question of Jiang coming here d u r i n g the UN
anniversary, I know t h a t , at l e a s t p r i o r t o the c u r r e n t problems,
they wanted him t o be i n v i t e d t o Washington. This l a s t t r i p ,
when I asked the Foreign M i n i s t e r i f Jiang would come i f we
i n v i t e d him, he j u s t r o l l e d h i s eyes. I t h i n k t h a t i f we do
i n v i t e him, you need some k i n d of b i p a r t i s a n assurance from the
H i l l t h a t t h e y ' l l a l l o w the v i s i t t o be s u c c e s s f u l . fe)
The President:
We can't have him come here and get r a i n e d on.
fe)
Dr. K i s s i n g e r : I t h i n k the i n v i t a t i o n should be u n c o n d i t i o n a l .
We can work w i t h them so t h a t they do the r i g h t t h i n g s on t h e i r
part.
fe)
The P r e s i d e n t : I appreciate your being w i l l i n g t o work t o g e t h e r
w i t h us on t h i s problem. I've been w o r r i e d s i c k about i t the
l a s t s e v e r a l days. I spent two hours on the phone, c a l l i n g
people a l l over the country t o t a l k about what we can do t o t u r n
t h i s around. I t ' s bad f o r the United States, bad f o r China, t o o .
Somehow, I hope you can l e t them know t h a t I want t o get t h i s
r e l a t i o n s h i p back on t r a c k .
fG)
The Vice President:
r i g h t now.
fe)
Working w i t h the H i l l i s r e a l l y important
The President: I don't know. I met w i t h Newt the other n i g h t
f o r d i n n e r . We t a l k e d f o r about three or f o u r hours. At the
same time as he's making outrageous statements about China, he
asked us t o help get some of the newer Republican members out
t h e r e so they understand the problems b e t t e r . Wants t o send 130140 of em out there i n a b i g herd.
(G)
x
Dr. K i s s i n g e r : I've t a l k e d t o G i n g r i c h b e f o r e .
him l a t e r on t h i s a f t e r n o o n .
fG)
And
I'm
seeing
CONFIDENTIAL
CN I E 1 CLINTON LIBRARY PHOTOCOPY
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CONFIDENTIAL
The Vice President:
I hope you can s t r a i g h t e n him out, fe-)
The P r e s i d e n t : I t ' s n o t t h a t I t h i n k they're s t u p i d ; t h e y ' r e
j u s t p r i s o n e r s o f t h e i r own experience.
I can't do much w i t h
them. Maybe you can. fe)
Let me j u s t say I appreciate your coming i n t o t a l k t o us about
this.
I t ' s a very important problem. I hope y o u ' l l continue
working w i t h us. fe)
Dr. K i s s i n g e r : Thank you f o r t a k i n g the time t o see us, Mr.
P r e s i d e n t . fe)
End o f Conversation
CONFIDENTIAL
C NI E M CLINTON LIBRARV mOTOCOPY
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Dublin Core
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<strong>Declassified Documents</strong>
Description
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This collection of declassified records focus primarily on foreign affairs. These records were declassified and made available to the public through a <a href="http://clinton.presidentiallibraries.us/mandatory-declassification-review-requests">Mandatory Declassification Review</a> request.
Provenance
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Clinton Presidential Records
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Clinton Presidential Library & Museum
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Paper
Dublin Core
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Title
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Declassified documents on Henry Kissinger
Identifier
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2006-1449-F
Date Available
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9/21/2015
Description
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This Freedom of Information Act request contains material on Henry Kissinger. Material includes a memorandum of conversation between Kissinger and President Clinton from 1995.
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National Security Council
Records Management Office
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<a href="https://catalog.archives.gov/id/7388808">National Archives Catalog Description</a>
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Adobe Acrobat Document
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Preservation-Reproduction-Reference
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Clinton Presidential Records: NSC Cable, Email, and Records Management System
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William J. Clinton Presidential Library & Museum
Date Created
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9/2/2015
Source
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2006-1449-F
7388808
Declassified
Foreign Policy
Henry Kissinger