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Clinton Presidential Records
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Folder Title:
NH [New Hampshire] Debates & Early Interviews I [3]
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92
4
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2
�DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES DEBATE
CO-SPONSORED BY
ATLANTA JOURNAL/CONSTITUTION AND WSB-TV
PARTICIPATING CANDIDATES:
JERRY BROWN, EORMER CALIFORNIA GOVERNOR.
B I L L CLINTON, ARKANSAS GOVERNOR
BOB KERREY, NEBRASKA SENATOR
PAUL TSONGAS, FORMER MASSACHUSETTS SENATOR
MODERATOR:
DICK WILLIAMS, ATLANTA JOURNAL
QUESTIONERS:
CYNTHIA TUCKER, ATLANTA CONSTITUTION
B I L L MIGUT, WSB-TV
CARTER PRESIDENTIAL CENTER
ATLANTA, GEORGIA
SUNDAY, MARCH 1,
1392
. STX
MONICA KAUFMAN: As p a r t o f Channel 2 A c t i o n News c o v e r a g e o f
Campaign '92, we want t o welcome y o u t o t h e Jimmy C a r t e r P r e s i d e n t
nter f o r today's Democratic debate.
I'm Mon i c a Kau f man.
DON FAF'.MER: And I'm Don Farmer.
We G e o r g i a n s d e c i d e now on
Tuesday who y o u want t o be y o u r p r e s i d e n t , and so we're g o i n g t o
hear f r o m some o f t h e h o p e f u l s t o d a y i n t h i s p l a c e d e d i c a t e d t o t h e
l a s t Democrat t o s i t i n t h e Oval O f f i c e , P r e s i d e n t Jimmy C a r t e r .
Four o f t h e f i v e D e m o c r a t i c c a n d i d a t e s a r e w i t h us f o r o u r d e b a t e
t h i s e v e n i n g . The f i f t h , S e n a t o r Tom H a r k i n o f Iowa, d i d n o t a c c e p t
our i n v i t a t i o n t o t a k e p a r t .
So now l e t ' s b e g i n , and l e t u s i n t r o d u c e y o u t o t h e men and
t e l l y o u s o m e t h i n g a b o u t each one o f them.
W e ' l l go i n a l p h a b e t i c a l
o r d e r , and so we b e g i n w i t h t h e f o r m e r g o v e r n o r o f C a l i f o r n i a , J e r r y
Br own.
J e r r y Brown s e r v e d a s t h e g o v e r n o r o f C a l i f o r n i a f o r t w o
t e r m s , b u t he c o n s i d e r s h i m s e l f as t h e o u t s i d e r who c a n change t h e
system.
I n t h i s h i s t h i r d t r y f o r t h e W h i t e House Brown i s
c a m p a i g n i n g a g a i n s t what he s e e s as t h e c o r r u p t i o n o f b i g money
influence.
H i s campaign c o n t r i b u t i o n s a r e l i m i t e d t o *100 a p e r s o n .
J e r r y Brown w o u l d r e p l a c e t h e c u r r e n t income t a x s y s t e m i n t h i s
c o u n t r y w i t h a f l a t 1 3 - p e r c e n t t a x on g r o s s u n a d j u s t e d income.
D e d u c t i o n s w o u l d be a l l o w e d o n l y f o r r e n t , m o r t g a g e payments, and
c h a r i t a b l e c o n t r i b u t i ons.
t
Mr. Brown's b e s t s h o w i n g s o f a r i n t h e p r i m a r i e s and c a u c u s e s
s h i s s e c o n d - p l a c e f i n i s h i n Maine.
. ETX
�Y
•
DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE
CARTER PRESIDENTIAL CENTER-03/01/92
PAGE #2
W
will
MS. KAUFMAN: To w i n t h e D e m o c r a t i c
need 2,144 d e l e g a t e s .
nomination, the candidate
Now c o n t i n u i n g i n a l p h a b e t i c a l o r d e r , t h e n e x t c a n d i d a t e has
e a r n e d t h e most d e l e g a t e s so f a r t o t h e D e m o c r a t i c N a t i o n a l
Convention.
Arkansas Governor B i l l C l i n t o n has y e t t o w i n a p r i m a r y
or a c a u c u s , b u t he h a s c o n s i s t e n t l y f i n i s h e d i n t h e t o p t h r e e .
I n 1979 a t t h e age o f 32 B i l l C l i n t o n was e l e c t e d g o v e r n o r o f
A r k a n s a s and became t h e n a t i o n ' s y o u n g e s t g o v e r n o r .
After losing a
bid
f o r r e e l e c t i o n , C l i n t o n f o u g h t back t o w i n f o u r c o n s e c u t i v e
t e r m s t o become t h e c o u n t r y ' s 1 o n g e s t - s e r v i n g g o v e r n o r .
The 4 5 year - o l d
g o v e r n o r p r o p o s e s a new economic p r o g r a m t o end t h e
r e c e s s i o n , i n c l u d i n g t a x c u t s f o r m i d d l e - c l a s s A m e r i c a n s . And
C l i n t o n p r o p o s e s a h e a l t h c a r e p l a n where e m p l o y e r s and e m p l o y e e s
e i t h e r p u r c h a s e p r i v a t e i n s u r a n c e o r buy i n t o a p u b l i c p r o g r a m ,
w h i c h he s a y s w o u l d c o v e r a l l A m e r i c a n s .
C l i n t o n s u r p r i s e d many by p l a c i n g a s t r o n g second i n New
Hampshire a f t e r a r o l l e r - c o a s t e r r i d e i n t h e p o l l s f o l l o w i n g a
s e r i e s o f c o n t r o v e r s i a l s t o r i e s about h i s p r i v a t e l i f e .
MR. FARMER: Our n e x t c a n d i d a t e i s w i t h u s v i a s a t e l l i t e f r o m
ver
t h i s e v e n i n g , where he i s c a m p a i g n i n g f o r t h e C o l o r a d o
'imary a l s o d a y a f t e r t o m o r r o w .
He i s , o f c o u r s e , S e n a t o r Bob
• e r r e y o f N e b r a s k a — b u s i n e s s m a n , war h e r o , p o l i t i c i a n .
D e s p i t e a l l o f Bob K e r r e y ' s p o l i t i c a l a c h i e v e m e n t s , most
A m e r i c a n s know h i m b e s t b e c a u s e o f h i s m i l i t a r y s e r v i c e r e c o r d . The
N e b r a s k a s e n a t o r l o s t p a r t o f h i s r i g h t l e g i n V i e t n a m and was
awarded t h e Medal o f Honor.
L a s t y e a r S e n a t o r K e r r e y f e l t t h e Bush
a d m i n i s t r a t i o n was b e i n g t o o c a v a l i e r i n s e n d i n g young A m e r i c a n s t o
f a c e t h e same d a n g e r s he f a c e d i n V i e t n a m .
As a r e s u l t , he opposed
g i v i n g t h e P r e s i d e n t a u t h o r i t y t o l a u n c h t h e war i n t h e G u l f .
S e n a t o r K e r r e y p r o p o s e s s t r e a m l i n i n g t h e f e d e r a l g o v e r n m e n t . He
s a y s he w o u l d u s e t h e s a v i n g s f r o m t h a t t o pay f o r i m p r o v e d
e d u c a t i o n , t e c h n o l o g y , c o m m u n i c a t i o n s , and h e a l t h c a r e .
S©nat o K e r r ey had a good weeI: l a s t week., wi nn i ng t he 8 o u t h
D a k o t a p r i m a r y o v e r t h e o t h e r n e i g h b o r i n t h e r a c e , Tom H a r k i n o f
I owa.
MS. KAUFMAN: Our f i n a l c a n d i d a t e i n t o d a y ' s d e b a t e i s a
former s e n a t o r from Massachusetts.
Paul Tsongas h a s t h e — was t h e
f i r s t t o d e c l a r e h i s candidacy f o r t h e Democratic nomination.
«
In 1984 Tsongas r e s i g n e d f r o m t h e US S e n a t e t o s u c c e s s f u l l y
t t l e c a n c e r , spend t i m e w i t h h i s f a m i l y , and make money. The 5 1 | r - o l d i s an a t t o r n e y w i t h a B o s t o n l a w f i r m .
Tsongas'
n s e r v a t i v e economic p l a n i s p u s h i n g t h e D e m o c r a t s t o work more
c l o s e l y with p r i v a t e businesses.
He w a n t s g r e a t e r i n v e s t m e n t i n
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�DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE
CARTER PRESIDENTIAL CENTER-03/01/92
X
PAGE #3
^ m a n u f a c t u r i n g and t e c h n o l o g y .
On o t h e r s o c i a l i s s u e s Tsongas i s
more l i b e r a l .
Tsongas b e l i e v e s a l l A m e r i c a n s s h o u l d r e c e i v e h e a l t h
c a r e c o v e r a g e under f e d e r a l , s t a t e , and p r i v a t e p l a n s .
Tsongas n o t o n l y was t h e f i r s t c a n d i d a t e
a l s o won t h e f i r s t p r i m a r y i n New H a m p s h i r e .
t o d e c l a r e , b u t he
MR. FARMER: Our c o l l e a g u e s a t t h e A t l a n t a J o u r n a l and
C o n s t i t u t i o n a r e c o - s p o n s o r s o f t h i s d e b a t e a l o n g w i t h WSB
Television.
We welcome them.
And so t h e c a n d i d a t e s w i l l have t h e
d o u b l e whammy o f t e l e v i s i o n and p r i n t j o u r n a l i s t s t o d e a l w i t h h e r e
t h i s evening.
MS. KAUFMAN:
The m o d e r a t o r o f t h e p a n e l i s c o l u m n i s t D i c k
W i l l i a m s o f the A t l a n t a J o u r n a l .
The q u e s t i o n e r s a r e C y n t h i a
T u c k e r , t h e e d i t o r o f t h e e d i t o r i a l page o f t h e A t l a n t a
C o n s t i t u t i o n , and Channel 2 p o l i t i c a l r e p o r t e r B i l l N i g u t .
MR. F'ARMER: Our f o r m a t , by t h e way, i s d e s i g n e d t o g e t t h e
most f r o m t h e c a n d i d a t e s w i t h t h e l e a s t i n t e r r u p t i o n s from a l l o f
us.
And t h e man whose j o b t h a t i s i s m o d e r a t o r D i c k W i l l i a m s .
Dick?
MR. WILLIAMS:
D u r i n g t h e n e x t h o u r , t i m e p e r m i t t i n g , we w i l l
ve t h r e e s e g m e n t s .
The f o r m a t f o r o u r d e b a t e t o d a y w i l l i n c l u d e
" q u e s t i o n s f r o m o u r p a n e l i s t s , f r o m G e o r g i a n s , and from t h e
c a n d i d a t e s t h e m s e l v e s i n each segment.
The f i r s t segment w i l l d e a l
w i t h t h e economy.
The s e c o n d w i l l c o n s i s t o f q u e s t i o n s a b o u t h e a l t h
care.
The t h i r d segment w i l l be what w e ' l l c a l l t h e " w i l d c a r d "
segment.
I n t h a t segment p a n e l i s t s and q u e s t i o n e r s a r e n o t l i m i t e d
t o any p a r t i c u l a r t o p i c .
For o u r f i r s t q u e s t i o n on t h e economy we w i l l go t o my
c o l l e a g u e C y n t h i a Tucker o f t h e A t l a n t a C o n s t i t u t i o n .
MS. TUCKER: G o v e r n o r Brown, A m e r i c a ' s economy i s i n a
downward s p i r a l .
Not o n l y h a s t h e s t u b b o r n r e c e s s i o n l e f t m i l l i o n s
o f A m e r i c a n s u n e m p l o y e d , b u t many r e m a i n i n g j o b s f a i l t o p r o v i d e
d e c e n t wages o r b e n e f i t s .
What i s y o u r p l a n t o c r e a t e j o b s t h a t pay
mi d d I e - c 1 ass wages?
o
f
l
t
o
t
r
t
z
MR. BROWN: W e l l , tiT..**?.
j
y ' ' g i v e t h e answer t o
t h e economy i n 45 s e c o n d s i s i m p o s s i b l e .
B u t j u s t as an o u t l i n e , a s
a theme, I b e l i e v e t h e number one s t e p we c o u l d t a k e w o u l d be t o
c l e a r away t h e u n d e r b r u s h o f t h i s d i s g r a c e t o t h e human r a c e , a s
P r e s i d e n t C a r t e r c a l l e d t h e Tax Code, and r e p l a c e a l l t h e e x i s t i n g
f e d e r a l t a x l a w s — c o r p o r a t e , "personal i n c o m e , S o c i a l S e c u r i t y ,
o l i n e tax.
E l i m i n a t e them and i n t h e i r p l a c e p u t a f l a t t a x .
s e c o n d l y — and t h a t w i l l s t i m u l a t e t h e economy, e n c o u r a g e
estment.
And t h e n s e c o n d l y , I w o u l d c r e a t e 50 e n t e r p r i s e z o n e s
•
i-n t h e most e c o n o m i c a l l y h a r d - p r e s s e d a r e a s o f A m e r i c a and g i v e
. ET)
a
l
�DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE
• ^ZARTER PRESIDENTIAL CENTER-03/01/92
PAGE #4
"tetisiness a t a x b r e a k f o r h i r i n g t h e p e o p l e t h a t a r e t h e r e unemployed
or g e t t i n g p u b l i c a s s i s t a n c e .
We have t o g i v e an o v e r a l l framework
f o r i n v e s t m e n t , and we have t o t a r g e t i t t o t h o s e who a r e f a c i n g t h e
greatest hardship.
MR. WILLIAMS:
Governor
Clinton"'
GOV. CLINTON: L e t me b e g i n by s a y i n g I'm h o n o r e d t o be h e r e
i n the Carter Center.
P r e s i d e n t C a r t e r b r o u g h t g r e a t honor t o t h i s
s t a t e and t o o u r c o u n t r y and t o o u r p a r t y .
He's w e l l on h i s way t o
b e i n g t h e most s u c c e s s f u l f o r m e r p r e s i d e n t i n t h e h i s t o r y o f o u r
c o u n t r y , and I hope he a p p r e c i a t e s t h i s d e b a t e t o d a y , as I t h i n k he
must .
I t h i n k we need a b a l a n c e d a p p r o a c h t o r e g e n e r a t e t h i s
economy.
F i r s t o f a l l , r e a l i n c e n t i v e s i n t h e p r i v a t e and p u b l i c
s e c t o r t o r e i n v e s t America, b u t o n l y those i n c e n t i v e s which w i l l
g u a r a n t e e i n v e s t m e n t s i n o u r c o u n t r y , i n o u r j o b s , o u r goods, o u r
s e r v i c e s — i n v e s t m e n t t a x c r e d i t s , new b u s i n e s s t a x c r e d i t s ,
r e l a x a t i o n s o f r u l e s t o encourage people t o i n v e s t i n l e g i t i m a t e
r e a l e s t a t e a g a i n . S e c o n d l y and e q u a l l y , i f n o t more, i m p o r t a n t , we
need a c o m p r e h e n s i v e commitment t o t h e e d u c a t i o n o f a l l A m e r i c a n s
t h r o u g h o u t t h e i r l i f e t i m e and a s y s t e m o r g a n i z i n g t h i s economy t o
p t t o c h a n g e i n s t e a d o f t o be p u n i s h e d by i t .
I f we do t h o s e
n g s , w e ' l l be f i n e .
MR. WILLIAMS:
Thank y o u ,
Governor.
Now l e t ' s go o u t t o D e n v e r , where S e n a t o r Bob K e r r e y i s
s t a n d i n g by t h a n k s t o t h e w i z a r d r y o f s a t e l l i t e .
Senator Kerrey?
being
SEN. KERREY:
here.
The " d i s e m b o d i e d
Senator
Kerrey."
I appreciate
W e l l , l e t me s a y f i r s t o f a l l t h a t t h e c h a l l e n g e f o r us i s t o
u n d e r s t a n d t h a t f o r 45 y e a r s we've been f i g h t i n g a C o l d War w i t h t h e
S o v i e t U n i o n , and t h a t war i s o v e r and we're e n t e r i n g u n c h a r t e d
w a t e r s b e y o n d t h e C o l d War. And t h e r e a s o n I s a y t h a t i s t h a t what
we need t o do u r g e n t l y i s t o r e s t r u c t u r e o u r t r a d i n g a r r a n g e m e n t s
w i t h Japan, w i t h t h e E u r o p e a n Community.
I don't b e l i e v e t h e
G e n e r a l Agreement on T a r i f f and T r a d e or t h e IMF — t h e y ' r e v e r y
c l u n k y w o r d s -- a r e g o i n g t o be c a p a b l e o f c o n v e r t i n g t h e o l d
e n e m i e s t h a t we've had i n t o new c u s t o m e r s .
We h a v e $439 b i l l i o n
worth o f s a l e s abroad.
I t i s c r u c i a l t h a t we h a v e economic change
in trade.
S e c o n d l y , a t home we've g o t t o c o n v e r t t h i s n a t i o n a l s e c u r i t y
s t a t e and b e g i n t o p r o d u c e t h e goods and s e r v i c e s t h a t t h e w o r l d
t s t o p u r c h a s e i n t h e same way t h a t we p r o d u c e d weapons s y s t e m s
t the world fears.
MR. WILLIAMS:
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Thank y o u , S e n a t o r
Kerrey.
�• DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE
DEM
RTEP
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And now l a s t b u t n o t l e a s t ,
Tsongas o f M a s s a c h u s e t t s .
PAGE #5
Senator
•— f o r m e r s e n a t o r
Paul
MR. TSONGAS: Thank y o u . L e t me s a y i t ' s a p l e a s u r e t o be a t
the C a r t e r C e n t e r .
I've a great a f f e c t i o n for a longshot candidate
who's n o t o v e r b u r d e n e d w i t h e n d o r s e m e n t s and h a s c o n v i c t i o n s .
And
i t ' s a p l e a s u r e t o be h e r e .
I t ' s a l m o s t a year — s i x days f r o m t o d a y — when I d e c i d e d t o
run
f o r p r e s i d e n t . I l i v e d i n t h e p r i v a t e s e c t o r . We're n o t
competing.
And t h e end r e s u l t o f t h i s i s t h a t Japan and Germany
o v e r t a k e u s and t h e j o b s t h a t y o u r e f e r r e d t o a r e l o s t .
For me t h e
e n g i n e i s t h e m a n u f a c t u r i n g s e c t o r . An MIT r e p o r t s a i d t w o y e a r s
ago, i f y o u w i s h t o l i v e w e l l , y o u must p r o d u c e w e l l .
So my e n t i r e
economic p r o g r a m i s t o s t i m u l a t e i n v e s t m e n t — n o t t o do t h e o t h e r
t h i n g s , b u t t o s t i m u l a t e i n v e s t m e n t so y o u g i v e t h e m i d d l e c l a s s a
job,
h i g h - p a y i n g j o b s c o m p e t i n g w i t h J a p a n , c o m p e t i n g w i t h Germany.
That h a s t o be t h e f u t u r e .
T h e r e i s , i n f a c t , no o t h e r .
MR. WILLIAMS:
Our n e x t q u e s t i o n e r i s t h a t most v i s i b l e o f
t e l e v i s i o n r e p o r t e r s on t h e campaign t r a i l i n G e o r g i a , B i l l N i g u t .
you h a v e a q u e s t i o n f o r G o v e r n o r C l i n t o n .
•
MR. NIGUT:
G o v e r n o r , a t t h e D e m o c r a t i c C o n v e n t i o n i n 1384
W a l t e r M o n d a l e s a i d t h a t he was g o i n g t o r a i s e t h e t a x e s o f
A m e r i c a n s , and many p e o p l e s a i d h i s campaign was dead f r o m t h a t
moment o n . Now e i g h t y e a r s l a t e r one o f t h e c o r n e r s t o n e s o f y o u r
c a m p a i g n i s a m i d d l e c l a s s t a x c u t . And y e t y o u ' r e g e t t i n g an
e x t r e m e l y s t r o n g c h a l l e n g e f r o m Paul Tsongas, who s a y s t h a t y o u want
t o be S a n t a C l a u s .
He s a y s no t a x c u t s .
I f t h e mood o f t h e p u b l i c
i s s u c h t h a t t h e y ' r e b u y i n g t h e message o f Paul Tsongas, does i t
suggest t h a t perhaps they f e e l t h a t t h e t a x c u t idea i s pandering t o
win votes?
GOV. CLINTON:
W e l l , f o r one t h i n g , y o u and o t h e r s who h a v e
c h a r a c t e r i z e d t h a t as t h e c o r n e r s t o n e o f my economic message h a v e
misrepresented i t .
I s a i d i n t h e b e g i n n i n g i t w o u l d do t w o t h i n g s
-~ i t w o u l d have a s h o r t - t e r m s t i m u l a t i v e e f f e c t on t h e economy and
i t w o u l d make a down payment on f a i r n e s s a f t e r 12 y e a r s o f c l a s s
w a r f a r e i n which t h e middle c l a s s g o t murdered, p o v e r t y exploded
e s p e c i a l l y among t h e w o r k i n g p o o r .
I have a l o n g - t e r m p l a n f o r
i n v e s t m e n t , f o r w o r l d - c l a s s e d u c a t i o n , and f o r r e o r g a n i z i n g o u r
ec onomy•
Now, what we d o n ' t s a y i s I pay f o r my t a x c u t w i t h an
i n c r e a s e i n t h e w e a l t h i e s t p e o p l e ' s i n c o m e s whose incomes went up
and t h e i r t a x e s went down i n t h e '80s. S e n a t o r Tsongas f a v o r s
^ ^ A j o s t a l l o f t h e i n c e n t i v e s I d o , b u t a l s o an a c r o s s - t h e - b o a r d
^ ^ ^ i t a l g a i n s c u t f o r p e o p l e who i n v e s t i n s t o c k s .
I think that's
dead w r o n g .
We d i d t h a t f o u r t i m e s f r o m '78 t o '86. Wages went
down.
The work week e x p l o d e d .
The p e o p l e t h a t g e t t h e b e n e f i t s a r e
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moving t h e i r j o b s overseas.
I j u s t disagree with t h a t .
So t h e
q u e s t i o n i s not whether t h e middle c l a s s g e t s a t a x c u t ; i t ' s do you
want t o g i v e i t t o t h e middle c l a s s or t o t h e people i n v e s t i n g i n
s t oc ks.
MR. WILLIAMS:
Thank you, Governor.
GOV. CLINTON:
I t ' s who gets t h e t a x c u t .
CONTINUED ON PAGE 2-1
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M . WILLIAMS:
R.
Thank y o u , G o v e r n o r .
GOV. CLINTON:
I t ' s who g e t s t h e t a x c u t s .
MR. WILLIAMS:
t o Denver t o S e n a t o r
Senat o r .
Thank y o u , G o v e r n o r , and now l e t ' s go back o u t
Bob K e r r e y . Tax p r e s c r i p t i o n s f o r y o u ,
SEN. KERREY: W e l l , I mean, I s u p p o r t t h e m i d d l e c l a s s t a x c u t
and o t h e r i n c e n t i v e s t o t r y t o i n c r e a s e i n v e s t m e n t , b u t t h e p r o b l e m
t h e r e i s t h a t i t ' s a secondary argument.
The p r i m a r y p r o b l e m t h a t
we've g o t i n A m e r i c a t o d a y , as I s a i d i n t h e b e g i n n i n g , i s t h a t f o r
45 y e a r s , we've g o t t h i s s t r u c t u r e t o f i g h t a war t h a t has now
ended.
Ask somebody i n t h e d e f e n s e i n d u s t r y i n G e o r g i a . Ask
somebody who i s i n t h e m i l i t a r y i n G e o r g i a a b o u t t h e a n x i e t y t h a t
they f e e l about t h e f u t u r e .
I t s p e a k s t o t h e need t o r e s t r u c t u r e
o u r g o v e r n m e n t , t h a t t h e y have n a t i o n a l h e a l t h i n s u r a n c e , so p e o p l e
d o n ' t l o s e t h e i r h e a l t h c a r e when t h e y l o s e t h e i r j o b , t o i n v e s t i n
t h e t e c h n o l o g i e s t h a t w i l l r e b u i l d o u r consumer e l e c t r o n i c s i n d u s t r y
and o u r s e m i c o n d u c t o r i n d u s t r y and o u r a e r o s p a c e and a g r i c u l t u r e and
automobiles.
I mean, we need t o p r o d u c e t h i n g s t h a t p e o p l e b u y i n
s t o r e s , and o u r government i s j u s t n o t o r g a n i z e d t o do t h a t , and
p r o p o s i n g t o shake t h e f o u n d a t i o n o f our government t o i t s c o r e
t o r e d i r e c t o u r r e s o u r c e s and o u r p r i o r i t i e s .
§
MR. WILLIAMS:
Senator
Tsongas?
MR. TSDNGAS: B i l l , I ' v e been i n p o l i t i c s a l o n g t i m e .
I
n e v e r l o s t an e l e c t i o n .
So I u n d e r s t o o d when a l l t h e p o l l s t e r s s a i d
t o us D e m o c r a t s , m i d d l e c l a s s t a x c u t , m i d d l e c l a s s t a x c u t . When I
s a i d n o , t h e r e had t o be a p u r p o s e .
I'm n o t s u i c i d a l p o l i t i c a l l y .
And t h e p u r p o s e was t h a t i f y o u t a l k : t o e c o n o m i s t s , men and women i n
b u s i n e s s , y o u t a l k , t o t h e e d i t o r i a l w r i t e r s , t h e r e was no c a l l f o r a
m i d d l e c l a s s t a x c u t . We h a v e t o t a k e o u r money, t h e p r e c i o u s
r e s e r v e s t h a t we have, and p u t i t i n t o v e n t u r e c a p i t a l , i n t o e q u i t y
c a p i t a l , i n t o Head S t a r t , t h o s e k i n d s o f t h i n g s , s o t h e r e i s i n f a c t
an economy.
I wo paid l o v e — l o v e t o have come o u t f o r a m i d d l e c l a s s t a x
cut.
T h a t ' s what my a d v i s e r s were s a y i n g t o me, b u t i t ' s n o t good
e c o n o m i c s , and i t seems t o me i f y o u ' r e g o i n g t o compete w i t h George
Bush i n s t e a d o f a b i d d i n g war, t h e n we a r e no b e t t e r .
I have t o be
t h e n o n - S a n t a C l a u s a l t e r n a t i v e t o what h a s been g o i n g o n .
MR. WILLIAMS:
•
it.
Thank y o u , S e n a t o r
Tsongas.
Governor
Brown?
MR. BROWN: W e l l , I ' d s a y y o u r S a n t a C l a u s sack i s p r e t t y
y, b e c a u s e l o l l i p o p s f o r b u s i n e s s a r e no b e t t e r t h a n l o l l i p o p s
the middle class.
The t a x code, I mean, l e t ' s be h o n e s t a b o u t
I t ' s been changed a l m o s t e v e r y y e a r .
E v e r y t h i n g t h a t Senator
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'"Tsongas i s t a l k i n g a b o u t and e v e r y t h i n g t h a t Governor C l i n t o n i s
t a l k i n g a b o u t h a s a l r e a d y been t r i e d .
The c a p i t a l g a i n s c u t , t h e
m i d d l e c l a s s c u t , we've had i t . T h a t ' s o b v i o u s l y n o t t h e s o l u t i o n .
We h a v e a 4,000-page t a < m o r a s s t h a t f e e d s on t h e c o r r u p t i o n o f
•
,
s e l l i n g l o o p h o l e s f o r campaign c o n t r i b u t i o n s .
U n t i l we g e t a t t h a t ,
by g e t t i n g t h e p o l i t i c s and t h e money o u t o f t h e t a x code, so t h a t
e v e r y A m e r i c a n can f i g u r e i t o u t on a p o s t c a r d , i t w i l l be s o
s i m p l e , under a f l a t t a x , w e ' r e n o t g o i n g t o g e t anywhere.
And t h e
> e a l p r o b l e m i s r e w a r d i n g f a i l u r e , p a y i n g t h e congressmen $130,000 a
y e a r , w h i c h t h e y d o n ' t d e s e r v e , and p a y i n g t h e CEOs o f t h e b i g
c o r p o r a t i o n s obscene s a l a r i e s , which they don't deserve e i t h e r .
MR. WILLIAMS:
Thank y o u , G o v e r n o r Brown.
Our n e x t q u e s t i o n
comes f r o m a G e o r g i a n .
I t i s a b o u t t h e economy, and i t w i l l be
a d d r e s s e d f i r s t by S e n a t o r Bob K e r r e y .
Q
I'm C i n d y Bowen Cph) o f L o c k h e e d , G e o r g i a f r o m t h e
P r o d u c t S u p p o r t D i v i s i o n , and my q u e s t i o n i s : W i t h a l l o f t h e c u t s
i n t h e d e f e n s e and t h e m i l i t a r y s e r v i c e s , a l o n g w i t h t h e c a r
c o m p a n i e s c l o s i n g , I want t o know how t h e D e m o c r a t i c p a r t y p l a n s t o
s t i m u l a t e t h e economy t o a b s o r b a l l t h e s e new p e o p l e coming i n t o an
a l r e a d y s a t u r a t e d work f o r c e .
SEN. KERREY: W e l l , l e t me, f i r s t o f a l l , s a y t h a t i n t h e
p o s a l s t h a t P a u l and B i l l and J e r r y have — d o n ' t t a k e i n t o
T: c o u n t t h e change n a t u r e o f o u r economy.
I mean, t h e y r e a l l y a r e
t r y i n g t o massage t h i s t h i n g a t t h e m a r g i n .
And i n o r d e r t o c r e a t e
j o b s i n t h e automobile i n d u s t r y , aerospace i n d u s t r y , semiconductor,
r e b u i l d o u r consumer e l e c t r o n i c s i n d u s t r y , we've g o t t o shake t h i s
g o v e r n m e n t t o i t s f o u n d a t i o n and t a k e i t and t u r n i t and o r i e n t i t ,
so t h a t i t now n o t o n l y i n v e s t s , b u t we have a c o h e r e n t t a x and
r e g u l a t o r y p o l i c y , we've g o t a f e d e r a l g o v e r n m e n t t h a t c r e a t e s j o b s
s o m e p l a c e o t h e r t h a n W a s h i n g t o n , DC.
I mean, I b e l i e v e t h a t we c a n
r e c r e a t e o u r consumer e l e c t r o n i c s i n d u s t r y and o u r — and o u r
semi conduc t o r i n d u s t r y.
But we've g o t t o h a v e n a t i o n a l h e a l t h i n s u r a n c e t h a t s a y s t o
our p e o p l e t h a t y o u d o n ' t l o s e your h e a l t h c a r e i f y o u l o s e y o u r
j o b , t h a t r e d i r e c t s o u r t e c h n o l o g y i n v e s t m e n t s , so t h a t we b e g i n t o
b u i l d t h e k i n d s o f j o b s t h a t p e o p l e want i n t h i s c o u n t r y , t h e k i n d s
o f j o b s i n f a c t t h a t a r e b e i n g c r e a t e d i n Germany and Japan.
rather
MR. WILLIAMS:
S e n a t o r T s o n g a s , t h e q u e s t i o n was a c t u a l l y
s p e c i f i c about d e c l i n i n g defense i n d u s t r i e s .
MR. TSONGAS: W e l l , what y o u have i n t h e d e f e n s e i n d u s t r i e s —
and b y t h e way i t ' s t r u e a l l o y e r t h e c o u n t r y , n o t j u s t h e r e — y o u
have a h i g h l y s k i l l e d p e o p l e who a r e w e l 1 - t r a i n e d , and when t h e
fcbacks t a k e p l a c e , w h e r e do t h e y go? So my e n t i r e p r o g r a m i s an
l e m p t t o c r e a t e new c o m p a n i e s , t o t a k e s m a l l c o m p a n i e s and grow
em, s o t h a t p e o p l e who h a v e t h i s t a l e n t and t h e s e s k i l l s have a
•
place t o take those
skills.
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Now, f o r e x a m p l e , i f y o u have a young man o r young woman i n
G e o r g i a t o d a y , w i t h a g r e a t i d e a , t h a t c a n become a g r e a t company,
employ t h o s e p e o p l e .
Do y o u know w h a t ' s g o i n g t o happen t o d a y ?
Two
possibilities.
One, t h e y ' r e g o i n g t o s t a r v e . T h e r e ' s no c a p i t a l .
T h e r e ' s no c r e d i t .
Second p o s s i b i l i t y , a f t e r much t i m e and agony,
t h e y ' r e g o i n g t o s e l l t h a t t e c h n o l o g y t o t h e Germans o r t h e J a p a n e s e
or t h e S w i s s o r t h e T a i w a n e s e .
T h a t ' s t h e g r e a t s t o p gap i n o u r
economy. We have t o g e t new c o m p a n i e s , grow t h o s e new c o m p a n i e s ,
make them l a r g e r c o m p a n i e s , so t h e s e p e o p l e h a v e a p l a c e t o t a k e
t he i r s k i l l s .
MR. WILLIAMS: A l l r i g h t .
r a t h e r s p e c i f i c q u e s t i o n s about
Loc kheed.
G o v e r n o r Brown, same t h i n g h e r e , a
one o f G e o r g i a ' s l a r g e s t e m p l o y e r s ,
MR. BROWN: Yeah. What y o u do i s h a v e t h e c i v i l i a n
equivalent.
Expand t h e s p a c e p r o g r a m .
Commit t h i s c o u n t r y t o h i g h speed t r a i n s .
Commit t h i s c o u n t r y t o a f i b e r - o p t i c n e t w o r k , t o w i r e
w i t h f i b e r - o p t i c s , t h i s e n t i r e n a t i o n t h a t w i l l be t h e i n t e r s t a t e
highway o f t h e f u t u r e , only o f communication, n o t o f automobiles
g o i n g back and f o r t h , b u r n i n g up f o r e i g n o i l .
I t takes a v i s i o n .
We had a P r e s i d e n t who s a i d w e ' l l p u t a man on t h e moon, and
t s t i m u l a t e d t h e e l e c t r o n i c s i n d u s t r y , t h e space i n d u s t r y .
That
r e a l l y what i s r e q u i r e d now. G i v e us a g o a l a n d s e t some — some
•
" r e a l i z a b l e o b j e c t i v e s beyond t o d a y ' s t e c h n o l o g y , and y o u w i l l f i n d
A m e r i c a n b u s i n e s s w i l l do t h e w o r k , and t h e same t e c h n i c a l p e o p l e i n
t h e m i l i t a r y w i l l now be w o r k i n g t o a d v a n c e o u r c i v i l i a n q u a l i t y o f
1 i fe.
M : WILLIAMS:
F.
Governor C l i n t o n ,
defense
cutbacks.
GOV. CLINTON:
F i r s t o f a l l , w e ' l l s t i l l need a d e f e n s e , and I
f a v o r t h e ATF P r o j e c t , a l t h o u g h n o t as many p l a n s a s t h e P r e s i d e n t
recommends.
I t ' s s t i l l an i m p o r t a n t p a r t o f o u r d e f e n s e s t r u c t u r e .
Here i s how we s h o u l d d e a l w i t h d e f e n s e b u i l d - d o w n s .
One,
t a k e e v e r y d o l l a r i n r e s e a r c h and d e v e l o p m e n t and c o n v e r t i t t o
comme r c i a1 r e s e a r ch an d d e ve1op men t .
Two, s e t up a n a g en c y f or
a d v a n c e d r e s e a r c h p r o d u c t s i n t h i s commerc i a l s i d e t h e way we do i n
t h e d e f e n s e s i d e . We a r e good a t t a k i n g d e f e n s e i d e a s and p u t t i n g
them i n t o A m e r i c a n j o b s , l o u s y a t t a k i n g c o m m e r c i a l i d e a s and
p u t t i n g them i n t o A m e r i c a n j o b s . T h r e e , l e t t h e s e c o m p a n i e s have
t h e i r c o n t r a c t s f o r a l i t t l e w h i l e l o n g e r t o r e t o o l t h e p l a n t s and
t o r e t r a i n t h e w o r k e r s ; and f o u r , h a v e a t a r g e t e d l i s t o f new
t e c h n o l o g i e s o f t h e f u t u r e , w h e r e we have i n v e s t m e n t , we g i v e
i n v e s t m e n t i n c e n t i v e s ; and then', f i n a l l y , h a v e a n a t i o n a l s y s t e m
^ j ^ e s t m e n t i n c e n t i v e s f o r new b u s i n e s s and a b a n k i n g s y s t e m t h a t
^^Bes
community-based small business l o a n s .
Those a r e t h e t h i n g s we
^ ^ i d t o do t o g e n e r a t e h i g h wage j o b s i n t h e f u t u r e .
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—
M ! WILLIAMS: Now, Governor C l i n t o n , i t i s your f i r s t
R.
o p p o r t u n i t y t o d i r e c t a q u e s t i o n t o one o f y o u r o p p o n e n t s , and w e ' l l
l e t y o u c h o o s e t h a t opponent r i g h t now.
GOV. CLINTON:
I ' d l i k e t o ask S e n a t o r Tsongas a q u e s t i o n .
He
has recommended t h a t we r a i s e t h e f e d e r a l g a s t a x up t o 5 p e r c e n t a
year — c e n t s a year — a g a l l o n e v e r y year f o r t h e n e x t decade.
I ' v e r a i s e t h e gas t a x , a l t h o u g h much l e s s t h a n t h a t , a t home t o
r a i s e money f o r r o a d s , and I t h i n k we a l l need — b e l i e v e we need
more money f o r i n f r a s t r u c t u r e . But i f we h a v e a 5 - c e n t - a - y e a r - f o r 10-year i n c r e a s e i n t h e g a s t a x , t h a t i s g o i n g t o mandate i n c r e a s e s
a t t h e s t a t e l e v e l , t o o . How a r e we g o i n g t o j u s t i f y t h a t i f t h e
p r i c e o f o i l e x p l o d e s , and how i s t h a t f a i r t o r u r a l p e o p l e i n
A r k a n s a s and G e o r g i a t o pay what w i l l e f f e c t i v e l y t h e n be £ c e n t s a
y e a r f o r 10 y e a r s , when p e o p l e r i d i n g t h e T C?/ph) i n B o s t o n o r t h e
o t h e r p e o p l e r i d i n g mass t r a n s i t won't h a v e t o do t h a t .
MR. TSONGAS: L e t me s a y t h a t y o u i n f a c t d i d r a i s e t h e
g a s o l i n e t a x 5 c e n t s , So I'm j u s t — j u s t t r y i n g t o honor y o u r
t r a d i t i o n i n t o a -~
(Laughter.)
GOV. CLINTON:
So I'm l / 1 0 t h
as good as y o u .
MR. TSONGAS: Mine i s n o t 5 c e n t s ; i t ' s 3 C c e n t s ] t o 5
[cents].
So I w i s h we w o u l d d e a l w i t h t h i s i n i t s r e a l i t y , number
one.
Secondly, apropos o f B i l l ' s q u e s t i o n e a r l i e r , I understand t h e
implications.
I t ' s v e r y easy t o s a y , "No, n o , none o f t h a t , " b u t we
d o n ' t have an e n e r g y p o l i c y .
People d i e d i n t h e P e r s i a n G u l f
b e c a u s e we d o n ' t have an e n e r g y p o l i c y .
Fifty billion dollars a
year h a s been d r a i n e d o u t o f o u r economy t o go t o t h e o i l p r o d u c i n g
states.
I t ' s v e r y easy p o l i t i c a l l y n o t t o h a v e an e n e r g y p o l i c y .
Why am I d o i n g t h i s ?
T h e r e h a s t o be a p u r p o s e i n how we r u n and
what we s t a n d f o r , and g i v i n g t h e A m e r i c a n p e o p l e an e n e r g y p o l i c y
t h a t i s c o n s t r u c t i v e and c o h e r e n t and g r a d u a l , we c a n p l a n and g e t
away f r o m t h i s dependence, s o o u r s o n s and d a u g h t e r s do n o t d i e i n
t he Per s i an G u l f .
M : WILLIAMS: Thank y o u , S e n a t o r Tsongas, and now we go o u t
F.
t o Denver a g a i n . S e n a t o r Bob K e r r e y , i t ' s y o u r c h a n c e t o a s k a
q u e s t i o n o f any o f t h e s e — o f your opponents, except Senator
Tsongas.
SEN, KERREY:
Oh, d a r n .
. had a good q u e s t i o n f o r P a u l .
1
(Laughter.)
and
SEN. KERREY: L e t me a s k B i l l C l i n t o n a q u e s t i o n .
B i l l , you
I h a v e had a few w o r d s i n t h e l a s t week o r s o a b o u t t h e d r a f t .
. ETX
�a
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I , by t h e way, do n o t q u e s t i o n your p a t r i o t i s m a t a l l , b u t c e n t r a l
t o y o u r message i s t h i s n o t i o n o f n a t i o n a l s e r v i c e . You d i d have a
c h a n c e t o s e r v e i n t h e ISSO's. You c o u l d have gone i n t h e Peace
Corps.
You c o u l d have w a l k e d i n t o any r e c r u i t i n g o f f i c e and j o i n e d
up and s e r v e d when d u t y c a l l e d .
What do y o u s a y t o a young p e r s o n
when y o u ' r e s e l l i n g y o u r n a t i o n a l s e r v i c e p r o g r a m , when t h e y come
back and ask y o u , "How come y o u d i d n ' t s e r v e i n t h e ISSO's?"
GOV. CLINTON:
I
war.
I t h o u g h t i t was
s i n c e <:?/ph> d e f e r m e n t
and, f r a n k l y , f o r most
t h o u g h t I was g o i n g t o
t e l l them, f i r s t o f a l l , t h a t I opposed t h a t
a t e r r i b l e mistake.
I had a f o u r - y e a r l o c k
t h a t I gave up and p u t m y s e l f i n t o t h e d r a f t ,
o f t h e year t h a t I was i n t h e l o t t e r y p o o l , I
serve.
I e x p e c t e d t o be d r a f t e d .
The second t h i n g I w o u l d say i s my n a t i o n a l s e r v i c e p r o p o s a l
f o r a d o m e s t i c GI B i l l i s v o l u n t a r y . You d o n ' t have t o do t h e
s e r v i c e , b u t i f y o u want t o b o r r o w t h e money t o go t o c o l l e g e , y o u
can w i t h o u t r e g a r d t o income, t h e n p a y i t back, w i t h e i t h e r t w o y e a r s
o f s e r v i c e t o o u r c o u n t r y h e r e a t home, be a p o l i c e o f f i c e r o r a
t e a c h e r , work i n a d r u g p r o g r a m , do s o m e t h i n g t o h e l p s o l v e o u r
p r o b l e m s , o r , i f y o u c h o o s e , pay i t back as a s m a l l p e r c e n t a g e o f
y o u r income o v e r t i m e .
I t h i n k t h a t ' s a good answer and a good
oice.
I f a v o r g i v i n g t h e young A m e r i c a n s t h e c h o i c e i n t h e
o r t u n i t y t o serve t h e i r country.
MR. WILLIAMS:
Thank y o u , Governor C l i n t o n . S e n a t o r T s o n g a s ,
y o u r c h a n c e t o a s k a q u e s t i o n o f — o f G o v e r n o r Brown o r S e n a t o r
Ker r ey.
MR. TSONGAS: I w o u l d l i k e t o ask G o v e r n o r Brown, i f I may.
I n t e r m s o f t h e f l a t t a x , w h i c h does have m e r i t — we t o o k a good
l o o k a t t h a t , and I t h i n k i t i s w o r t h d i s c u s s i o n — t h e i s s u e i s :
How do y o u make i t p r o g r e s s i v e ?
How do y o u end up i n a s i t u a t i o n
when someone who i s poor i s n o t p a y i n g a h i g h e r p e r c e n t a g e i n t e r m s
o f n e t w o r t h compared t o someone who i s a m i l l i o n a i r e ?
And t h e
r e a s o n t h a t we w a l k e d away f r o m t h a t was t h a t p a r t i c u l a r i s s u e , s o
i f you could address t h a t .
MR. BROWN: W e l l , v e r y s i m p l y , when we f i r s t s t a r t e d t h i n k i n g
a b o u t t a x e s , a t l e a s t f o r m y s e l f , t h i s was way back i n t h e ' 5 0 s .
The S o c i a l S e c u r i t y t a x was 2 p e r c e n t , a b o u t * 8 8 . Now i t ' s $6,000,
15.3 p e r c e n t , a t o t a l l y f l a t t a x w i t h no d e d u c t i o n s .
A flat tax
t h a t I p r o p o s e w o u l d g i v e a r e n t d e d u c t i o n , w h i c h w o u l d come r i g h t
o f f o f t h e t a x b a s e and t h e n c h a r i t y o r home i n t e r e s t a l o n e , and we
e l i m i n a t e t h e S o c i a l S e c u r i t y t a x , which i s c o m p l e t e l y r e g r e s s i v e ,
i s h i g h e r and h a s no d e d u c t i o n s .
And i n t e r m s o f h e l p i n g p e o p l e
t h a t a r e p o o r , t h a t need f a m i l y - a s s i s t a n c e , we make t h a t a m a t t e r o f
e x p e n d i t u r e , o f n a t i o n a l p o l i c y , and I do s u p p o r t f a m i l y a s s i s t a n c e ,
I want t h a t t o be a s o c i a l p r o g r a m where d o l l a r s a r e
^^Vropriated.
I d o n ' t want t o m i x up t h e t a x c o d e , w h i c h a l w a y s
v ^ r k s t o t h e b e n e f i t o f t h o s e who c a n h i g h e r r i c h l a w y e r s and
l o b b y i s t s , t o l o b b y Congress o r t o i n t e r p r e t t h e ambiguous s t a t u t e s .
L e t ' s keep t a x e s c l e a n and e x p e n d i t u r e s f o r s o c i a l o b j e c t i v e s .
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it's
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MP. WILLIAMS: G o v e r n o r Brown, w e ' l l s t a y r i g h t w i t h y o u , and
y o u r c h a n c e t o ask a q u e s t i o n o f S e n a t o r Bob K e r r e y i n Denver.
MR.
BROWN:
I wanted
to ask a question
of Senator
Tsongas, but
(Laugh t er . ')
MR, BROWN: A l l r i g h t .
I w o u l d l i k e t o ask t h i s .
Bob, your
-- y o u r h e a l t h p r o p o s a l by some e s t i m a t e s I have seen r e q u i r e s a t a x
i n c r e a s e o f $250 m i l l i o n e v e r y y e a r — 250 b i l l i o n [ d o l l a r s ! —
p a r d o n me. Now, t h a t s t r i k e s me a s a r a t h e r heavy l o a d . Would y o u
e x p l a i n t h a t and t e l l u s w h e t h e r t h e r e i s a n y way we c a n f r e e
o u r s e l v e s f r o m t h a t o r i s t h a t .just t h e p a i n f u l d a r k s i d e o f y o u r
health care proposal?
SEN. KERREY: T h a t ' s n o t t h e p a i n f u l d a r k — f i r s t o f a l l ,
J e r r y , y o u s h o u l d e x p l a i n t o a l l y o u r s u p p o r t e r s who hear y o u s a y
y o u ' r e f o r a s i n g l e - p a y e r p r o p o s a l how y o u ' r e g o i n g t o g e t i t done
w i t h o u t s h i f t i n g t o a taxpayer system.
You're out t h e r e campaigning
and s a y i n g y o u ' r e f o r a s i n g l e - p a y e r s y s t e m , and now y o u p u t a
s t i o n t o me a b o u t t h i s .
I t h o u g h t i n f a c t y o u and I a g r e e d on
A p p a r e n t l y , we d o n ' t .
MR. BROWN:
We a g r e e
SEN. KERREY: J e r r y ,
f i n i sh t he ques t i on.
on t h e s i n g l e
l e t me —
payer.
l o o k , I'm d i s e m b o d i e d .
L e t me
(Laughter.)
SEN. KERREY: You know, we must s h i f t f r o m a premium-based
system t o a tax-based system.
My p r o p o s a l w i l l a c t u a l l y spend $150
b i l l i o n over t h e next f i v e y e a r s l e s s .
T h a t ' s c e n t r a l t o my
economic message.
We now h a v e t o o r g a n i z e , a s Germany, as J a p a n , a s
our economic c o m p e t i t o r s do. My p r o p o s a l w i l l c o s t an a v e r a g e
A m e r i c a n $500 l e s s a y e a r , b u t i t w i l l a l l o w u s t o f o c u s on j o b
t r a i n i n g and e d u c a t i o n , j u s t as t h e Germans and t h e Japanese do, and
say t o o u r w o r k e r s , "Don't w o r r y a b o u t l o s i n g y o u r j o b , because y o u
w i l l n o t l o s e y o u r h e a l t h c a r e as a c o n s e q u e n c e . "
MR. WILLIAMS: S e n a t o r K e r r e y , t h a n k y o u .
Y o u ' l l g e t a chance
t o e l a b o r a t e more on t h a t on t h e h e a l t h c a r e i s s u e . B i l l N i g u t ,
t h a t ' s o u r n e x t s e g m e n t , and I t u r n t o y o u w i t h a q u e s t i o n f o r
Gover nor C 1 i n t on.
MF?. NIGUT: W e l l , i t i s , b u t I want t o g i v e y o u 10 s e c o n d s .
Senator K e r r e y c h a l l e n g e your p a t r i o t i s m or n o t ?
He s a y s he
n't,
b u t he c e r t a i n l y was t o u g h l a s t week i n G e o r g i a .
listen
. ETX
GOV. CLINTON: W e l l , i t ' s j u s t d e p e n d i n g on what day y o u
t o him.
B u t , y o u know, t h e s e t h i n g s happen i n c a m p a i g n s , and
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I d o n ' t t a k e them p e r s o n a l l y . Bob K e r r e y and I have been f r i e n d s a
long time.
We're g o i n g t o be f r i e n d s when t h i s i s o v e r .
My
p a t r i o t i s m i snot at issue.
I ' v e s e r v e d my c o u n t r y f o r a l o n g t i m e
and w e l l and n o t f o r t h e money o r a n y t h i n g e l s e .
I ' v e done what I
b e l i e v e d i n , s o I d i d n ' t t a k e i t p e r s o n a l l y , and I ' l l be g l a d t o
have w h a t e v e r d e b a t e anybody w a n t s t o h a v e .
MR. NIGUT:
W e l l , I wanted t o g i v e y o u a moment t o r e s p o n d t o
t h a t , i f you f e l t a need t o . But l e t ' s move o n . Because we're a t
t h e C a r t e r C e n t e r , I want t o t a l k t o y o u a b o u t an i s s u e t h a t I know
i s v e r y c l o s e t o Jimmy C a r t e r ' s h e a r t r i g h t now. Grady Csp)
H o s p i t a l i s j u s t a b o u t a m i l e and a h a l f o r t w o m i l e s away f r o m
where we're s i t t i n g .
They have a n e o n a t a l c a r e n u r s e r y t h a t c o s t s
$2,000 a d a y f o r t h e b a b i e s i n s i d e t h a t u n i t .
M e d i c a i d p a y s $3,000
t o t a l , and some o f t h o s e b a b i e s a r e i n t h e r e f o r months on e n d .
Now, when I hear your h e a l t h c a r e p l a n , b a s i c a l l y a pay o r p l a y
s y s t e m , i t seems t o me i t w o r k s — i t c o u l d work f o r p e o p l e who a r e
e m p l o y e d , p e o p l e who a r e i n j o b s r i g h t now. The q u e s t i o n i s w h e t h e r
par n o t y o u r p l a n w i l l i n f a c t work f o r t h e w o r k i n g p o o r , f o r t h e
u n e m p l o y e d and t a k e t h e b u r d e n o f p a y i n g f o r t h i n g s , l i k e t h e
n e o n a t a l c a r e u n i t a t Grady h o s p i t a l , o f f t h e b a c k s o f t a x p a y e r s
who, f o r t h e most p a r t , a f t e r a l l a r e m i d d l e c l a s s A m e r i c a n s .
GOV. CLINTON:
No, y o u ' r e n e v e r g o i n g t o t a k e t h e b u r d e n o f
^ ^ ^ T y i n g f o r t h o s e t h i n g s o f f t h e b a c k s o f t h e t a x p a y e r s , one way o r
the o t h e r .
The way t o t a k e t h e b u r d e n o f p a y i n g f o r t h o s e t h i n g s
o f f t h e b a c k s o f t h e t a x p a y e r s i s t o have a c o m p r e h e n s i v e p l a n w h i c h
w i l l g e t women t o t h e d o c t o r s s i x t i m e s b e f o r e t h e y g i v e b i r t h ,
which w i l l reduce t h e r a t e o f low b i r t h weight babies.
Look, t h a t ' s
the fundamental problem.
I f a baby i s b o r n w e i g h i n g under f i v e
p o u n d s , t h e baby c o s t s $50,000 t o d e l i v e r as o p p o s e d t o $3,000 f o r a
n o r m a l baby.
I f t h e baby w e i g h s under t h r e e p o u n d s , i t w i l l c o s t
over $150,000.
We p u t a n e o n a t a l c e n t e r i n my s t a t e d u r i n g my f i r s t
t e r m , a f t e r my w i f e headed t h e R u r a l H e a l t h C a r e Task F o r c e .
I know
how much i t c o s t s .
The answer i s p r e v e n t a t i v e and p r i m a r y c a r e o u t
there.
Take i t t o t h e r u r a l a r e a s .
Take i t t o t h e i n n e r c i t i e s .
Have t h e c l i n i c s i n t h e s c h o o l s and have t h e c l i n i c s a c c e s s i b l e t o
p e o p l e and y o u w i l l r e d u c e t h e c o s t .
But s o c i e t y w i l l i n e v i t a b l y
h a v e t o pay t h e h i g h c o s t o f k e e p i n g t h o s e t r o u b l e d b a b i e s a l i v e .
MR. WILLIAMS: Thank; y.,
,;
G o ver n o r , S e n a t o r K e r r e y , back t o
h e a l t h care f o r you, s p e c i f i c a l l y , inner c i t y h o s p i t a l s .
u
f
SEN. KERREY: W e l l , f i r s t o f a l l , t h a t was a b a l o n e y answer.
I mean, y o u ' r e n o t g o i n g t o be a b l e t o g e t a l i n e a p p r o p r i a t i o n t o
h e l p e v e r y poor c h i l d i n A m e r i c a g e t t h a t k i n d o f p r e n a t a l c a r e .
The o n l y way t o do i t i s t o f u n d a m e n t a l l y change t h e way we f i n a n c e
1th c a r e , and I t h i n k A m e r i c a n s u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t h e c u r r e n t
tern i s b a d l y f l a w e d .
My p r o p o s a l a l l o w s f o r c o n t i n u o u s h e a l t h
e f o r a l l o f our c h i l d r e n .
I'm t h e o n l y one t h a t ' s a d v o c a t i n g
•
for l o n g - t e r m care.
And, y e s , J e r r y , I t h i n k A m e r i c a n s a r e r e a d y t o
f a c e s q u a r e l y i n t h e f a c e t h i s need t o change t h e way we pay, and
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t h e y u n d e r s t a n d t h a t i n t h e e n d , t h e y ' l l end up p a y i n g l e s s , and i n
t h e end w e ' l l have an e n v i r o n m e n t where t h e s e c h i l d r e n a t Grady
H o s p i t a l do n o t have t o s u f f e r , and where we make s u r e t h a t t h e y
grow t o be f u l l members o f o u r s o c i e t y .
MR. WILLIAMS:
Thank y o u , S e n a t o r .
GOV. CLINTON:
Do I have a r i g h t
MR. WILLIAMS:
WeI 1,
Senator
t o answer
—
the baloney
part?
s u r e.
GOV. CLINTON: He p a y s f o r i t w i t h t a x p a y e r d o l l a r s , t o o .
Nine s e p a r a t e f e d e r a l t a x i n c r e a s e .
I ' v e made t h e same answer he
did.
S o c i e t y w i l l pay —
SEN. KERREY:
No.
GOV. CLINTON:
—
No, B i l l .
f o r t h o s e poor
kids.
SEN. KERREY: No. No, y o u h a v e n ' t g i v e n t h e same answer,
Bill.
What y o u j u s t s a i d was we o u g h t t o g e t s i x p r e n a t a l v i s i t s
for e v e r y mother.
You c a n ' t do i t under y o u r p r o p o s a l .
GOV. CLINTON:
Yes, y o u c a n .
SEN. KERREY: Under my p r o p o s a l , I g e t t h e j o b done.
a l w a y s d e s c r i b e t h e p r o b l e m , b u t y o u d o n ' t move w i t h i t —
GOV. CLINTON:
Those women a r e c o v e r e d by t h e p u b l i c
You
—
SEN. KERREY: Your p r o p o s a l — y o u r p r o p o s a l , B i l l , does n o t
s o l v e t h e problem.
I t i n f a c t may make t h e p r o b l e m worse.
Mine
s o l v e s t h e p r o b l e m and a l l o w s u s i n t h i s new e r a t o move on t o
d e v e l o p a c o h e r e n t economic s t r a t e g y t h a t w i l l r e e m p l o y A m e r i c a n s
and a l l o w us t o be c o m p e t i t i v e w i t h Germany and J a p a n . U n l e s s we
h a v e t h e c o u r a g e t o do t h i s one, I'm n o t s u r e we have t h e c o u r a g e t c
do a l l t h e r e s t .
M R. WILLIAMS: T h a n k y o u, Sen a. t o r K e r r e y.
jump r i g h t i n t h e r e , p l e a s e .
MR. TSONGAS:
It's
Senator
T son g a s ,
n i c e t o be o u t o f t h e l i n e o f f i r e .
(Laughter.)
MR. WILLIAMS:
I think
I just
put you back
i n i t . Go ahead.
MR. TSONGAS: W e l l , l e t ' s go from b a l o n e y t o s t e a k , i f we c a n
with t h i s .
I c a n ' t g i v e you s i z z l e .
I ' l l t r y to give the
Plak.
The f a c t i s t h a t Bob K e r r e y and I d i s a g r e e on t h e i s s u e o f
e a l t h c a r e , but he h a s put t o g e t h e r a v e r y good p l a n .
I happen t o
t h i n k o u r s i s b e t t e r , but t h e f a c t i s t h a t t h e both o f us have put
f
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t o g e t h e r comprehensive plans.
I c a r e d e e p l y about h e a l t h c a r e
b e c a u s e I'm a l i v e b e c a u s e o f h e a l t h c a r e , and I f e e l what was
a v a i l a b l e t o me s h o u l d be a v a i l a b l e t o e v e r y A m e r i c a n .
So o u r a p p r o a c h t o g e t t o t h e s p e c i f i c q u e s t i o n , t h e
g o v e r n m e n t mandates t h a t e v e r y b o d y i s c o v e r e d , and t h e e m p l o y e r pays
—
and t h o s e who a r e unemployed, who a r e s e l f - e m p l o y e d , who a r e
p a r t - t i m e r s , t h e s t a t e n e g o t i a t e s w i t h t h e p r o v i d e r s , so t h a t each
person then gets a card.
So t h a t ' s how e v e r y b o d y i s b r o u g h t i n t o
t h e system.
And t h e f i n a l t h i n g I w o u l d s a y i s t h i s managed c o m p e t i t i o n
a p p r o a c h h a s been e n d o r s e d i n i t s c o n c e p t b y , f o r example, Time
M a g a z i n e , B u s i n e s s Week, t h e New York Times, and i t g i v e s y o u some
sense i f t h e r e i s some s o l i d i t y t o what we have p r o p o s e d .
CONTINUED ON PAGE 3-1
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�PAQE 3-1
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X
at
MP:. WILLIAMS:
that.
Thank y o u , S e n a t o r .
Governor Brown, your
turn
MR. BROWN: W e l l , I d o n ' t a g r e e w i t h Paul Tsongas' i d e a o f
managed
ompe t i t i on . We've had e x p e r i m e n t s w i t h t h a t .
Corporations
a r e i n b u s i n e s s t o make money and I t h i n k a major p a r t o f t h e
problem w i t h h e a l t h care today i s greed.
I t ' s excessive p r o f i t s
f r o m d r u g c o m p a n i e s , from s p e c i a l i s t s , f r o m i n s u r a n c e companies
a c t i n g as t h i s m a s s i v e b u r e a u c r a t i c i n t e r m e d i a r y i n t h e d e l i v e r y o f
s e r v i ces.
We f i n d o u t t h a t i n A m e r i c a n h o s p i t a l s t h e y
b u i l d i n g a l o n e and i n t h e same h o s p i t a l i n Canada
10 o r 15 i n t h e same s i z e h o s p i t a l .
So i t r e a l l y
r a t i o n i n g t h e g r e e d , n o t t h e need, and y o u need a
c o n t r o l t o enable Americans t o get h e a l t h care at
get
i t i n Canada and E u r o p e and J a p a n .
MR. WILLIAMS: Thank: y o u , G o v e r n o r .
C y n t h i a Tucker, please.
have 300 p e o p l e i n
t h e y may have o n l y
i s a matter of
tight price
t h e same c o s t t h e y
Our n e x t q u e s t i o n
from
«
i
MS. TUCKEF:: S e n a t o r K e r r e y , w o u l d n ' t a c o m p r e h e n s i v e h e a l t h
re s y s t e m such as t h e one y o u p r o p o s e i n e v i t a b l y p r o d u c e l o n g
i t s f o r r o u t i n e s u r g e r y and r a t i o n i n g f o r e x p e n s i v e p r o c e d u r e s
suc h as o r g an t r an s p 1 an t s ?
SEN. KERREY: No, no. T h a t ' s a f e a r t h a t ' s a l w a y s t h r o w n o u t
t h e r e by i n s u r a n c e c o m p a n i e s and o t h e r s , and I must say w i t h r e s p e c t
t o Paul Tsongas, i t may n o t be b a l o n e y b u t i t ' s c l o s e .
I mean, t h e
f a c t i s , y o u d o n ' t have l o n g t e r m c a r e i n t h e p r o p o s a l and u n t i l we
b u d g e t h e a l t h c a r e a t t h e n a t i o n a l l e v e l , u n t i l we j u s t say t h a t
e v e r y A m e r i c a n i s c o v e r e d , l i k e e v e r y one o f o u r i n d u s t r i a l
c o m p e t i t o r s do, we're n o t g o i n g t o be a b l e t o r e f o r m t h i s s y s t e m .
No, mine w i l l n o t p r o d u c e l o n g e r l i n e s .
I t gives patients
c h o i c e , Americans c h o i c e at t h e l o c a l l e v e l .
They g e t t o c h o o s e
t h e i r d o c t o r . They g e t t o c h o o s e t h e i r h o s p i t a l .
They g e t t o
c hoo s e whe r e t hey w a n t t o g o, bu t t h e most i mp o r t an t t h i n g i s t h a t
t h i s g r o w i n g u n c e r t a i n t y t h a t p e o p l e have about w h e t h e r or n o t t h e
b i 1 1 s a r e g o i ng t o g e t p a i d i s e 1 i mi n a t ed.
We h a v e a r e s p o n s i b i l i t y t o . c o n t r o l t h e c o s t s . Mine f a c e s t h e
r e s p o n s i b i l i t y t o c o n t r o l t h e c o s t s d i r e c t l y and w i l l a l l o w us t o be
c o m p e t i t i v e w i t h Japan and Germany and w i l l a l l o w us t o advance t o
o t h e r economic c h a n g e s .
MR. WILLIAMS:
a t o r Tsongas.
your
„ ETX
Thank y o u , S e n a t o r
Kerrey.
Back a t y o u ,
MR. TSONGAS: L e t me s a y , Bob, I ' v e a l w a y s i n r e f e r e n c e t o
h e a l t h c a r e p l a n s have gone o u t o f my way t o commend y o u on
�DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE
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wnafc y o u ' v e done and t o show r e s p e c t f o r t h e e f f o r t t h a t y o u made,
so I w o u l d hope t h a t t h a t w o u l d c o n t i n u e as y o u speak a b o u t my
p r ogram as w e l l .
Let me s a y t h e r e a r e d i s a g r e e m e n t s h e r e , b u t t h e d i s a g r e e m e n t s
b e t w e e n us a r e m i n o r compared t o what we're p r o p o s i n g and George
Bush.
We s h o u l d make i t v e r y c l e a r , i f George Bush i s r e e l e c t e d ,
t h e r e w i l l be n o . h e a l t h c a r e p l a n i n t h i s c o u n t r y .
What he t h r e w
out
i n t h e S t a t e o f t h e U n i o n was a g i m m i c k , t a x c r e d i t s .
No one,
no one b e 1 i e res i n them.
So w h i l e t h e r e may be t h e s e d i s a g r e e m e n t s and d i f f e r e n c e s •— I
happen t o t h i n k mine i s b e t t e r and i t ' s been e n d o r s e d by o t h e r
p u b l i c a t i o n s , b u t Bob K e r r e y ' s or mine, w h a t e v e r , t h e f a c t i s i t ' s
g o i n g t o be a l o t b e t t e r and more v i a b l e t h a n what George Bush w i l l
present.
MR. WILLIAMS:
Thank, y o u , S e n a t o r .
Governor
Brown.
MR. BROWN: On t h e h e a l t h c a r e ?
I — look.
There's a reason
why we d o n ' t h a v e h e a l t h c a r e i n t h i s c o u n t r y .
P r e s i d e n t Truman
p r o p o s e d a n a t i o n a l h e a l t h c a r e s y s t e m t h a t was w o n d e r f u l and
c o v e r e d e v e r y o n e and t h a t was 50 y e a r s ago. S e n a t o r Kennedy t a l k e d
•ut i t 20 y e a r s ago. The D e m o c r a t i c p l a t f o r m h a s c o n t a i n e d a c a l l
n a t i o n a l h e a l t h c a r e f o r 25 y e a r s .
•
The p r o b l e m i s t h a t t h e h e a l t h c a r e l o b b i e s , t h e i n s u r a n c e
c o m p a n i e s , t h e p h a r m a c e u t i c a l c o m p a n i e s and o t h e r s pour $30 m i l l i o n
e v e r y t w o y e a r s i n t o t h e C o n g r e s s t o keep i t t h e way i t i s . U n t i l
we c a n r e f o r m t h a t s y s t e m o f c o r r u p t money f e e d i n g o u r p o l i t i c s ,
we're n o t g o i n g t o g e t a h e a l t h c a r e s y s t e m .
that
T h i s i s a m a t t e r o f t a k i n g power back: f r o m t h o s e i n t e r e s t s
now have a s t r a n g l e h o l d on t h e g o v e r n a n c e o f t h i s n a t i o n .
MR. WILLIAMS: Thank y o u , G o v e r n o r .
And C y n t h i a , l e t ' s l e t
y:• u r e f o c u s t h e q u e s t i on as we go t o Gover nor Cl i n t on .
•:
GOV. CLINTON:
Do I g e t t o answer"
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, b u t I'm g o i n g t o l e t h e r p u t a
s 11 a r per f oc us on i t .
little
Q
Yes, b u t I'm g o i n g t o a s k i t a l i t t l e d i f f e r e n t l y
b e c a u s e S e n a t o r K e r r e y had a s p e c i f i c p r o g r a m t h a t I wanted t o ask
h i m a b o u t and I w o u l d l i k e t o ask y o u i n s t e a d t o t a l k a l i t t l e b i t
about c o s t c o n t a i n m e n t .
Everybody wants t o see a l l Americans p r o v i d e d w i t h h e a l t h
l e , b u t how do we a d d r e s s t h e p r o b l e m t h a t some p r o c e d u r e s , l i k e
gan t r a n s p l a n t s , l i k e t h e c a r e t h a t S e n a t o r Tsongas g o t a f t e r h i s
c a n c e r was d i a g n o s e d , a r e c o n t i n u e d , a r e g o i n g t o c o n t i n u e t o be
v e r y expensive' ' What do we do a b o u t c o s t c o n t a i n m e n t ?
7
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GOV. CLINTON:
W e l l , y o u have t c do t w o t h i n g s .
First of a l l ,
we a r g u e , I t h i n k , t o o much about t h e method o f f i n a n c i n g .
E v e r y b o d y knows y o u c a n save between $30 ( b i l l i o n ) and $120 b i l l i o n
i f y o u w i l l mandate n a t i o n a l i n s u r a n c e r e f o r m , d r a m a t i c r e d u c t i o n s
i n h e a l t h c a r e b u r e a u c r a c y by c e n t r a l i z e d b i l l i n g o f c o m p r e h e n s i v e
b a s i c p a c k a g e s , and i f y o u b a s i c a l l y t a k e o u t a l o t o f t h e
rnicromanagement
t h a t t h e f e d e r a l government has p u t i n t o t h e s y s t e m
t h a t has b a l l o o n e d t h e cost o f h e a l t h care.
The p r o b l e m i s , we have r a t i o n e d h e a l t h c a r e on t h e f r o n t e n d .
We d o n ' t have a c c e s s t o p r i m a r y and p r e v e n t i v e c a r e .
We d o n ' t have
enough e d u c a t i o n and b a s i c h e a l t h s e r v i c e s i n o u r s c h o o l s .
We
b r o u g h t t h e i n f a n t m o r t a l i t y r a t e down i n my s t a t e by 40 p e r c e n t b y
reaching out t o those people.
So I say t o y o u what y o u want
h e a l t h c a r e g r o u p s where t h e y pay a
n e e d , b u t y o u f r o n t - l o a d t h e system
the expensive procedures w i l l s t i l l
i s i n c e n t i v e s t o get people i n
y e a r l y f e e , g e t whatever t h e y
so t h a t t h e few p e o p l e who need
be a b l e t o g e t i t .
MR. WILLIAMS:
Thanks, G o v e r n o r .
Now we t u r n t o a q u e s t i o n
f r o m a r e a d e r and a v i e w e r on h e a l t h c a r e , and i t w i l l be a d d r e s s e d
p Senator Paul Tsongas.
•
Q
My name i s M i c h a e l M i t c h e l l .
I w o u l d l i k e t o know what
a r e t h e c a n d i d a t e s g o i n g t o do t o p r o v i d e h e a l t h c a r e f o r t h e poor
i n t h e r u r ad a r e a s o f t h e S o u t h ?
MR. WILLIAMS:
Senator
Tsongas?
MR. TSONGAS: Thank y o u . Under my p l a n , as I s t a t e d e a r l i e r ,
f o r t h o s e p e o p l e who a r e n o t w o r k i n g f o r l a r g e e m p l o y e r s , who a r e
s e l f - e m p l o y e d o r u n e m p l o y e d , t h a t c a t e g o r y o f p e o p l e , t h e y have no
c a p a c i t y t o go o u t t h e r e and n e g o t i a t e , so under my p l a n t h e s t a t e
has t h a t f u n c t i o n .
I t i s t h e r e s p o n s i b i l i t y o f t h e s t a t e t o come i n and n e g o t i a t e
for people i n r u r a l areas, f o r people i n small businesses, f o r
p e o p l e who a r e u n e m p l o y e d , t h e p e o p l e who a r e s e l f - e m p l o y e d , e t
c e t e r a.,
The o n l y way t h e s y s t e m o p e r a t e s — we t a l k e d about c o s t
containment
i f y o u have p a r t i e s who a r e n e g o t i a t i n g who have
equal s t r e n g t h .
A g a i n , t h e p r o b l e m w i t h t h e Bush p l a n i s y o u have
t h e i n d i v i d u a l a g a i n s t a p r o v i d e r . Under o u r p l a n you'd have t h e
p r o v i d e r a n d t h e s t a t e o f e q u a l s t r e n g t h , and t h e t h r e e o t h e r c o s t
c o n t a i n m e n t s , i f I c o u l d , o n e , s t a n d a r d i z e d c o s t s , t w o , changed
m a l p r a c t i c e l a w s so d o c t o r s d o n ' t p r a c t i c e d e f e n s i v e m e d i c i n e , and
l i r d and most i m p o r t a n t l y , p r e v e n t i v e c a r e .
MR. WILLIAMS:
G o v e r n o r Brown, r u r a l h e a l t h c a r e , s h o r t a g e s o f
d o c t o r s and t h e l i k e a r o u n d t h i s s t a t e i n p a r t i c u l a r .
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MR. BROWN: W e l l , I b e l i e v e i f y o u c r e a t e a u n i v e r s a l s y s t e m
w i t h a s i n g l e p a y e r so t h a t we're a l l i n t h e same b o a t , w h e t h e r i t ' s
t h e P r e s i d e n t , a v e t e r a n , o r a poor p e r s o n o r anyone i n t h e m i d d l e ,
we're a l l p a r t o f a u n i v e r s a l s y s t e m , t h e n t h e needs o f a l l p e o p l e
w i l l be ser ved.
I n t e r m s o f t h e r u r a l a r e a s and o t h e r u n d e r - s e r v e d a r e a s , i t ' s
a m a t t e r o f n a t i o n a l p r i o r i t y as p a r t o f t h a t u n i v e r s a l s y s t e m .
Today i t ' s f r a g m e n t e d .
F i f t e e n hundred d i f f e r e n t
insurance
c o m p a n i e s t r y i n g t o make a p r o f i t i n d e l i v e r i n g t h i s w h o l e
fragmented system.
U n i f y i t as t h e y do i n Canada w i t h a s i n g l e
p a y e r and I b e l i e v e y o u can a l l o c a t e i n t h e p r o p e r way t o a s s u r e
t h a t every American has a b a s i c l e v e l o f c a r e , i n c l u d i n g l o n g - t e r m
c are.
MR. WILLIAMS: Governor C l i n t o n , t h e q u e s t i o n ,
w o u l d a p p l y e q u a l l y as w e l l t o A r k a n s a s .
I suppose,
GOV. CLINTON: Yes, and i t ' s a v e r y i m p o r t a n t one. And I want
t o make i t c l e a r , y o u w i l l n o t g e t c o v e r a g e t o r u r a l A m e r i c a j u s t b y
having n a t i o n a l coverage.
I f you p r o v i d e a l l those people w i t h a
b a s i c package o f access, coverage, t h a t ' s i m p o r t a n t .
You've s t i l l
»t t o g e t t h e d o c t o r s and t h e n u r s e s and t h e f a c i l i t i e s o u t t h e r e .
I n my p l a n we w o u l d a l l o c a t e some money f o r r u r a l h e a l t h
c l i n i c s and t o w o r k i n g p a r t n e r s h i p s l i k e t h e one y o u have h e r e i n
G e o r g i a , p r o b a b l y t h e most s u c c e s s f u l i f i t s k i n d i n t h e c o u n t r y ,
w i t h M e r c e r , w i t h t h e m e d i c a l c o l l e g e o f G e o r g i a , w i t h t h e s t a t e and
l o c a l o f f i c i a l s here p u t t i n g d o c t o r s out i n r u r a l areas.
I would r e v i t a l i z e t h e N a t i o n a l H e a l t h S e r v i c e Corps, I would
work v e r y h a r d a t p r o v i d i n g f u n d s t h r o u g h l o c a l h e a l t h d e p a r t m e n t s ,
t h r o u g h s c h o o l s , and t h r o u g h o t h e r u n i t s t o p u t d o c t o r s and m e d i c a l
f a c i l i t i e s out i n r u r a l areas.
areas,
P u r e c o v e r a g e won't do i t . You've g o t t o go t o t h e r u r a l
g o t t o do t h e same t h i n g i n t h e i n n e r c i t i e s .
MP. WILLIAMS: And S e n a t o r K e r r e y ,
the Great P l a i n s o f Nebraska.
t h e same t h i n g ,
I g u e s s , on
SEN. KERREY: W e l l , l o o k .
W i t h H e a l t h USA, my p r o p o s a l , a s
c o n t r o v e r s i a l as i t may be on t h e t a x c u t , l e t me j u s t s a y t o t h e
people out t h e r e i n Georgia t h a t a r e l i s t e n i n g t o t h i s t h i n g , you're
g o i n g t o p a y l e s s , n o t more, and a l l t h e r e p r e s e n t a t i o n s made by
o t h e r f o l k s out. h e r e t o t h e c o n t r a r y j u s t i s n ' t t r u e .
E v e r y s i n g l e A m e r i c a n w i l l have a c a r d , t h e y ' l l be a l l o w e d t o
noose t h e i r d o c t o r , be a b l e — a l l o w e d t o c h o o s e t h e i r h o s p i t a l ,
"nd t h i s f e a r t h a t p e o p l e h a v e , t h e r e q u i r e m e n t o f g o i n g t o a
w e l f a r e o f f i c e w i l l be e l i m i n a t e d , t o p r o v e t h a t y o u ' r e poor enough
t o g e t e i t h e r acute care or l o n g - t e r m care f o r our p a r e n t s .
. ET"
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X
PAGE
What I do on t o p o f t h a t , s e c o n d l y , i s t o s a y t h a t we need t o
d e l i v e r c a r e , and I p r o v i d e v e r y s p e c i f i c f u n d i n g , $2 b i l l i o n t o
d e l i v e r c a r e t o r u r a l a r e a s and t o i n n e r c i t y a r e a s t h a t a r e u n d e r served .
The t h i r d t h i n g t h a t I do i s t h a t I r e q u i r e t h e s t a t e s — and
by t h e way, t h e s t a t e s w i l l manage, n o t t h e f e d e r a l g o v e r n m e n t . I
r e q u i r e t h e sto.tes t o d e v e l o p a p r e v e n t i o n a c c o u n t s p e c i f i c a l l y so
t h a t we c a n g e t o u t t h e r e and do i m m u n i z a t i o n and p r e v e n t a t i v e work.
NR. WILLIAMS:
A l l r i g h t , S e n a t o r K e r r e y , t h a n k y o u . Now
G o v e r n o r Brown, i t ' s your t u r n t o p i c k a c a n d i d a t e o f your c h o o s i n g
t h i s t i m e t o whom y o u a d d r e s s a q u e s t i o n .
MR. BROWN: Yeah.
I ' d l i k e t o ask S e n a t o r Tsongas.
In this
managed c o r p o r a t e c o m p e t i t i o n , y o u ' v e s t i l l g o t t h e p r o f i t m o t i v e
s i t t i n g i n t h e r e w i t h hundreds o f i n s u r a n c e companies a l l p r o v i d i n g
t h e i r own s e p a r a t e p o l i c i e s .
How i n t h e w o r l d a r e y o u e v e r g o i n g t o
g e t t h e c o s t c o n t r o l needed t o p r o v i d e t h e u n i v e r s a l a c c e s s ?
MR. TSONGAS: L e t me s a y as p r e f a c e t h a t a s w o n d e r f u l a s t h e
C a n a d i a n s y s t e m i s , i f I had been i n Canada when I g o t c a n c e r , I may
t be h e r e t o d a y , s o t h e r e ' s a l i m i t t o my e n t h u s i a s m —
(Laughter ')
MR. TSONGAS:
MR. BROWN:
—
t o how much
I don't
I c a n embrace i t .
know where t h e r e ' s any e v i d e n c e o f t h a t .
MR. TSONGAS: L e t me f i n i s h .
The f a c t i s , t h e o n l y way y o u
can b r i n g a b o u t e f f i c i e n c y — when I g o t my g r o u p t o g e t h e r , t h i s i s
back i n May, I s a i d , "You've g o t t w o mandates.
One, e v e r y b o d y g e t s
i t and t w o , d o n ' t b a n k r u p t t h e c o u n t r y w h i l e y o u ' r e a t i t . "
G i v i n g i t t o e v e r y b o d y i s t h e easy p a r t .
How y o u c o n t a i n t h e
cost i st h e d i f f i c u l t p a r t .
There a r e two c h o i c e s .
One, g o v e r n m e n t
is e f f i c i e n t .
I f y o u b e l i e v e t h a t , we have c o u n s e l i n g a v a i l a b l e
o u t s i d e a f t e r t h e program.
The o t h e r i s t o u s e t h e m a r k e t p l a c e t o
compete a g a i n s t each o t h e r s o i t i s i n t h e s e l f - i n t e r e s t o f t h e
p r o v i d e r s t o b r i n g t h o s e c o s t s down s o t h e y r e a c h o u t , t h e b e s t
d o c t o r s , t h e most e f f i c i e n t d o c t o r s , t h e b e s t h o s p i t a l s .
I am v e r y wary o f a p r o g r a m t h a t s a y s t h a t p e o p l e l i k e me —
you t a l k a b o u t t h e t e c h n o l o g i e s — t h a t we're n o t e l i g i b l e and we're
g o i n g t o h a v e t o w a i t . No t h a n k s .
I ' d r a t h e r s t i l l be h e r e .
MR. WILLIAMS:
Take a deep b r e a t h , S e n a t o r T s o n g a s , b e c a u s e
t's
G o v e r n o r C l i n t o n ' s t u r n t o ask a q u e s t i o n o f a c a n d i d a t e , o f
anyone e x c e p t y o u .
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x
GOV. CLINTON:
I ' d l i k e t o ask a q u e s t i o n o f Governor Brown.
I have been i m p r e s s e d w i t h a l o t o f what y o u s a i d about p o l i t i c a l
r e f o r m , and I a g r e e w i t h i t , a l o t o f what y o u s a i d , b u t l e t me ask
you what y o u r s p e c i f i c p o s i t i o n w o u l d be on a b i l l i n Congress t o
l i m i t t h e a g g r e g a t e c o s t o f c o n g r e s s i o n a l c a m p a i g n s and r e q u i r e
t e l e v i s i o n and r a d i o s t a t i o n s t o open t h e a i r w a y s f o r d e b a t e s l i k e
w e'r e h a v i ng now.
Even i f y o u ' r e down t o $100 a p e r s o n l i m i t , p e o p l e w i t h a l o t
o f money w i l l f i n d a l o t o f p e o p l e w i t h 4100 t o g i v e a l o t o f money
t o campaigns.
So s h o u l d n ' t we l i m i t t h e c o s t o f c a m p a i g n s and
mandate d e b a t e s so TV can become an i n s t r u m e n t o f e d u c a t i o n , n o t a
weapon o f a s s a s s i n a t i o n ' " '
MR. BROWN:
t h i s c o u n t r y were
basis, nationwide,
h a l f , and t h e n a s
expenditure l i m i t s
I agree w i t h t h a t .
I fthe television stations of
mandated t o p r o v i d e d e b a t e s l i k e t h i s on a r e g u l a r
you'd c u t t h e c o s t s o f P r e s i d e n t i a l c a m p a i g n s i n
a c o n d i t i o n o f b e i n g p a r t o f t h a t program
were i m p o s e d , t h e n we w o u l d h a v e a p r o g r a m .
You c a n do t h i s w i t h t h e same m a t c h i n g f u n d s , $100 d o l l a r
l i m i t , and t h e n I w o u l d add an 800 number and l e t e v e r y c a n d i d a t e —
y e a h , t h e f e a r e d 800 number — and I w o u l d j u s t s a y , l e t t h e p e o p l e
ye
c i d e how much money t h e y want t o c a l l i n t o t h e i r 800, w h i c h i s
S-111'2.
I ' d l i k e y o u t o c a l l i n b e c a u s e t h a t ' s t h e way my
Campaign s u r v i v e s .
Not on t h e f a t c a t s , b u t on r e q u l a r A m e r i c a n s
called"426-1112.
GOV. CLINTON:
MR. BROWN:
W e l l , w o u l d y o u do t h e same t h i n g
Yes, I w o u l d do t h e same.
GOV. CLINTON:
T h a t ' s what
I'm t r y i n g
to —
MR. BROWN: And T b e l i e v e i n t h e n e x t campaign
g o i n g t o have e i t h e r an 800 o r 900 number —
GOV. CLINTON:
bill.
your
f o r Congress?
A 900 number.
That's
everyone i s
—
MR. BROWN: I t h i n k t h a t o u g h t t o be i n t h e c o n g r e s s i o n a l
Then t h e m a r k e t p l a c e d e t e r m i n e s who w i l l be s u p p o r t e d .
MR. WILLIAMS: Thank y o u , g o v e r n o r s . S e n a t o r K e r r e y , i t ' s
t u r n t o d i r e c t a q u e s t i o n t o Governor C l i n t o n o f A r k a n s a s .
SEN. KERREY: L e t me s t i c k t o t h e s u b j e c t o f h e a l t h c a r e .
I ' v e g o t t o t e l l y o u , i t p a i n s . e t o l o o k o u t a t t h i s c o u n t r y and
m
see t h e g r o w i n g u n c e r t a i n t y .
I j u s t d i s a g r e e w i t h P a u l Tsongas, by
he way. I mean, M e d i c a r e and S o c i a l S e c u r i t y a r e more e f f i c i e n t i n
a c t t h a n t h e p r i v a t e s e c t o r have been.
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PAGE 3-7
But B i l l , l e t me ask y o u t h i s .
I n your h e a l t h c a r e p r o p o s a l ,
where d o e s l o n g - t e r m c a r e come i n ? How do y o u g e t l o n g - t e r m c a r e
u n d er y ou r p r op osa 1 ?
GOV. CLINTON:
I t h i n k y o u have t o f i n a n c e i t t h r o u g h an
e x t e n s i o n o f t h e M e d i c a r e p r o g r a m , and I t h i n k t h a t y o u have t o make
i t a v a i l a b l e t o p e o p l e b e f o r e t;hey f a l l i n t o p o v e r t y , w h i c h i s t h e
c a s e f o r g o v e r n m e n t c o v e r a g e t o d a y , and y o u have t o g i v e p e o p l e a
b i" o a d a r r a y o f c h o i c e 3 .
We a d o p t e d a p r o g r a m i n A r k a n s a s c a l l e d E l d e r C h o i c e s t h i s
y e a r , s t a r t i n g w i t h 3,000 p e o p l e , where we l e t them d e c i d e .
Money
t h a t used t o go t o n u r s i n g home c a r e , do you. want i t f o r a n u r s i n g
home o r w o u l d y o u p r e f e r i t f o r home h e a l t h c a r e , p e r s o n a l c a r e , f o r
t r i p s t o t h e senior center.
You d e c i d e .
Under my p r o p o s a l what we w o u l d do i s have t h e government pay
f o r p a r t o f i t and have e v e r y b o d y who p a r t i c i p a t e s pay f o r i t ,
l i m i t e d t o a p e r c e n t a g e o f t h e i r income so t h a t no one w o u l d be
unduly burdened.
M : WILLIAMS: A l l r i g h t , S e n a t o r Tsongas.
R.
sk a q u e s t i o n o f S e n a t o r Bob K e r r e y .
I t ' s your
turn t o
MR. TSONGAS:
Bob. We b o t h t a l k a b o u t m a n u f a c t u r i n g .
One o f
t h e i m p o r t a n t b i l l s t h a t i s now b e f o r e t h e S e n a t e w h i c h D a l e Bumpers
i n t r o d u c e d i s a m o d i f i e d c a p i t a l g a i n s t a x c u t , t h a t b a s i c a l l y says
i f y o u i n v e s t i n new c o m p a n i e s y o u g e t t h i s c a p i t a l g a i n s t a x
c r ed i t H
Most o f t h e D e m o c r a t s i n t h e S e n a t e have e n d o r s e d t h a t and y o u
have n o t .
I w o u l d l i k e t o ask why y o u have n o t s i g n e d o n t o t h a t
b ill.
SEN. KERREY:
I t ' s just a procedural thing.
You want me t o
endorse i t , I endorse i t . I l i k e t h e idea.
I t h i n k : i t ' s a good
p r o p o s a l t o s t e e r economic r e s o u r c e s i n t o new b u s i n e s s e s .
Eiut l e t me s a y , P a u l , t h a t you know, y o u r e p r e s e n t t h a t y o u ' r e
in the p r i v a t e sector.
I t h i n k some t i m e you. o u g h t t o d i s c l o s e
d i r e c t l y and h o n e s t l y t h a t y o u ' r e a r e g i s t e r e d l o b b y i s t i n
Washington.
I ' v e r u n i n t o y o u i n t h e gym w h i l e y o u ' r e d o i n g work.
I know what i t ' s l i k e t o c r e a t e j o b s i n t h e p r i v a t e s e c t o r and
I u n d e r s t a n d n o t j u s t t h e t a x e s t h a t need t o be a d j u s t e d — t h e t a x
s y s t e m n e e d i n g t o be a d j u s t e d t o c r e a t e t h o s e j o b s , b u t we need a
w h o l e new s t r a t e g y .
Our g o v e r n m e n t i s n o t o r g a n i z e d t o be a b l e t o c r e a t e t h e k i n d
f h i g h p a y i n g j o b s t h a t I t h i n k A m e r i c a n s w a n t , and I ' v e g o t t o
" t e l l you, I t h i n k t h e American people a r e ready t o f i g h t f o r t h e
k i n d o f f u n d a m e n t a l change t h a t w i l l p u t us i n l i n e w i t h o u r
e c o n o m i c c o m p e t i t o r s o f Japan and Germany.
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CONTINUED ON PAGE 4-1
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MR. WILLIAMS:
A l l r i g h t , l e t ' s change t h e s u b j e c t a b i t and
go t o a n o t h e r q u e s t i o n f r o m a good r e a d e r o f t h e A t l a n t a J o u r n a l and
C o n s t i t u t i o n o r a v i e w e r o f Channel 2. The q u e s t i o n i s about c r i m e
and d r u g s .
Q
My name i s S h e i l a T a l b e r t t'.ph) and I ' m a n a t i v e
At 1 a n t an.
I w o u l d I i h e t o know what t h e D e m o c r a t i c P a r t y w o u l d do
t o h e l p f i g ht t he c r i me s i t n a t i o n , e speo i a 1 1 y t h e d r u g p r o b i e m s
we're h a v i n g i n t h e i n n e r c i t i e s .
MR. WILLIAMS:
G o v e r n o r Brown, w e ' l l
start
w i t h you.
MR. BROWN: I t ' s v e r y c l e a r t o me. When I was g o v e r n o r , I
signed hundreds o f a n t i - c r i m e b i l l s .
We d o u b l e d t h e number o f
p e o p l e t h a t were g o i n g t o p r i s o n .
We s t a r t e d a p r i s o n - b u i l d i n g
binge.
And t h e n , f o r t h e n e x t t e n y e a r s a f t e r I l e f t o f f i c e , so d i d
P r e s i d e n t Reagan and a l l t h e o t h e r g o v e r n o r s , and c r i m e h a s gone up.
Gang w a r f a r e — c r a c k was i n v e n t e d i n t h e mid-'SOs and i t ' s become a
scourge.
The number one answer t o c r i m e i s t o make s u r e t h a t e v e r y
A m e r i c a n h a s a j o b , t h a t t h e s e n e i g h b o r h o o d s o f i s o l a t i o n and
d e s p a i r a r e removed and t u r n e d i n t o a v e n u e s o f hope and o p p o r t u n i t y ,
h a t ' s what t h e e n t e r p r i s e zone w i l l do t o g i v e a t a x b r e a k f o r
s i n e s s t o go i n and h i r e p e o p l e .
E v e r y A m e r i c a n must have a c c e s s
E a l i v i n g f a m i l y wage. That i s n o t t h e c a s e t o d a y .
>
Link that
w i t h e d u c a t i o n and y o u ' l l c u t t h e c r i m e r a t e d r a m a t i c a l l y .
M : WILLIAMS:
R.
Thank y o u , G o v e r n o r Eirown.
Governor
Clinton.
GOV. CLINTON:
With r e g a r d t o t h e s u p p l y problem, I would
s t r e n g t h e n t h e t r a d i t i o n a l Coast Guard b o r d e r p a t r o l e f f o r t s .
I
w o u l d do more t o f o l l o w t h e p l a n e s t h a t a r e c o m i n g i n t o t h i s c o u n t r y
t o remote a i r p o r t s .
But i t ' s m o s t l y a demand p r o b l e m — 5 p e r c e n t
of t h e p e o p l e i n t h e w o r l d u s i n g h a l f t h e d r u g s .
I w o u l d have
t r e a t m e n t on demand.
I w o u l d have a l t e r n a t i v e s t o i n c a r c e r a t i o n .
I ' d h a v e c o m m u n i t y - b a s e d b o o t camps i n e v e r y m a j o r c i t y and i n r u r a l
a r e a s i n t h i s c o u n t r y f o r e d u c a t i o n , t r e a t m e n t , d i s c i p l i n e , and
h o p e f u l l y c o n n e c t i n g p e o p l e t h r o u g h c o m m u n i t y s e r v i c e work t o a
better future.
I'm g o i n g t o v i s i t one o f t h e b o o t camps h e r e i n
G e or g i a t omo r row.
I w o u l d h a v e community p o l i c i n g , more p o l i c e m e n on t h e s t r e e t
p r e v e n t i n g c r i m e , n o t j u s t c a t c h i n g p e o p l e a f t e r t h e y commit c r i m e s .
And I w o u l d r e a c h t h e s e k i d s and a d o l e s c e n t s t o t r y t o t u r n them
away f r o m t h e l i f e t h e y ' r e c o m i n g t o l i v e .
You've g o t t o d e a l w i t h
thie demand p r o b l e m s and c o n n e c t t h e s e c h i l d r e n t o o u r s o c i e t y a g a i n .
MR. WILLIAMS:
SEN.
tough w i t h
. ETX
Senator
Kerrey.
KERREY: W e l l , f i r s t
i t . I mean, I d o n ' t
o f a l l , I t h i n k we've g o t t o g e t
t h i n k we a r e . I mean, we're a l l
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: rt i ng h e r e t e r r i f i e d o f t h e N a t i o n a l R i f l e A s s o c i a t i o n .
I respect
a p e r s o n ' s r i g h t t o bear arms; I'm f r o m a w e s t e r n s t a t e .
But we
d o n ' t need s e m i a u t o m a t i c r i f l e s on o u r s t r e e t s .
We d o n ' t need o u r
k i d s h a u l i n g a r o u n d — g o i n g t o o u r s t o r e s and b u y i n g l i t t l e p i s t o l s
t h a t t h e y u s e t o s h o o t one a n o t h e r .
We've g o t t o g i v e o u r l a w
e n f o r c e m e n t p e o p l e t h e r e s o u r c e s t h e y need t o f i g h t t h i s b a t t l e , and
we've g o t t o make i t c l e a r t h a t when we t a l k about gangs t h a t we
send a s i g n a l t h a t y o u ' r e g o i n g t o g e t p u n i s h e d i f y o u v i o l a t e o u r
laws.
And f i n a l l y , I ' d j u s t say on t r e a t m e n t on demand, B i l l -- I
mean, u n l e s s y o u have a s p e c i f i c l i n e , some more money t h a t y o u ' r e
g o i n g t o spend, u n l e s s y o u have a n a t i o n a l p r o g r a m o f h e a l t h c a r e ,
l i k e H e a l t h USA, t h e one t h a t I ' v e i n t r o d u c e d , t h a t i n f a c t does pay
f i j r t r e a t m e n t o n d e m a rid, t h a t pays f o r t r e a t m e n t f o r a l e o hi o 1 i s m,
t h a t w o u l d a l l o w us t o d e v e l o p c o m m u n i t y - b a s e d , n o t f e d e r a l l y d r i v e n , b u t community-based programs t h a t would a l l o w people t o p u t
t h e i r l i v e s back t o g e t h e r , I j u s t f e a r we're n o t g o i n g t o g e t t h e
j o b done.
MR. WILLIAMS:
S e n a t o r Tsongas, your s h o t
at t h a t .
MP. TSQNGAS: Thank y o u . Number one, t h e most i m p o r t a n t , have
an economy t h a t w o r k s so p e o p l e h a v e hope and t h e y d o n ' t g e t i n t o
c r i m e and i n t o d r u g s .
But as t o d r u g s s p e c i f i c a l l y , number one,
t_ho3e c o u n t r i e s w h i c h e x p o r t d r u g s t o t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s s h o u l d be on
th.:
j t i c e t h a t t h e r e ' l l be s a n c t i o n s a g a i n s t them. S e c o n d l y , t a k e some
y o u r m i l i t a r y c a p a b i l i t y and u s e i t t o i n t e r d i c t s u p p l i e s coming
n.
T h i r d l y , t h e death p e n a l t y f o r major drug t r a f f i c k e r s ; t h a t has
t o b e s o c i e t y ' s s t r o n g e s t message; we w i l l n o t t o l e r a t e t h i s k i n d o f
activity.
And t h e n t h e most i m p o r t a n t i n my m i n d , r e h a b i l i t a t i o n ;
someone who w a n t s t o g e t o f f d r u g s s h o u l d be g i v e n e v e r y o p p o r t u n i t y
t o do t h a t and c e a s e t h e l i f e o f c r i m e .
And I t h i n k u l t i m a t e l y , w e
.
have t o educate our c h i l d r e n .
You know, I have a 1 0 - y e a r - o l d and a
1 4 - y e a r - o l d and an 1 8 - y e a r - o l d .
T h e y ' r e exposed t o t h i n g s t h a t I
n e v e r dreamed o f . We have t o g i v e o u r c h i l d r e n t h e c a p a c i t y so when
t h e s e t e m p t a t i o n s come down t h e r o a d , t h e y have enough i n t h e i r
h e a d s t o make t h e r i g h t d e c i s i o n .
MR. WILLIAMS:
Thank y o u , S e n a t o r Tsongas.
This debate,
g e n t l e m e n , as y o u know, i s a h a l f an hour s h o r t e r t h a n most, so —
and w e ' r e w i n d i n g down, so w e ' l l go r i g h t t o a n o t h e r r o u n d o f f r e e f o r - a l l questions.
And S e n a t o r K e r r e y , we s t a r t w i t h y o u w i t h t h e
opponent o f your c h o o s i n g .
SEN.
KERREY:
MR. WILLIAMS:
Oh, I g e t t o ask a q u e s t i o n .
You do.
SEN.: KERREY: W e l l , l e t me a s k J e r r y Brown.
J e r r y , y o u know,
I e s s e n t i a l l y a g r e e on s i n g l e - p a y e r s y s t e m o f h e a l t h c a r e and I have
ow p i c k e d up t h e e n d o r s e m e n t o f S e n a t o r M o y n i h a n f o r t h e p r o p o s a l ,
d I t h i n k t h e r e ' s g o i n g t o be g r o w i n g e n t h u s i a s m .
You know
l e r e ' s an a w f u l l o t o f s p e c i a l - i n t e r e s t money t h a t ' s g o i n g t o
9
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PAGE 4-3
ose i t . Why do y o u t h i n k t h a t n e i t h e r
f o r m e r S e n a t o r Tsongas have p r o p o s e d t h a t
Governor C l i n t o n n o r
k i n d o f s w e e p i n g change?
MR. BROWN: Because i t i s sweeping change.
I t i sa radical
d e p a r t u r e f r o m w h e r e we a r e , and i t i n c l u d e s e v e r y o n e i n one s y s t e m ,
and i t ' s t h e o n l y way y o u c a n a c t u a l l y c o n t r o l c o s t s , because t h e
s i n g l e p a y e r c a n say no. A l l t h e s e c o m p e t i t o r s t h a t S e n a t o r Tsongas
i s t a l k i n g a b o u t a r e s t i l l i n b u s i n e s s t o make a p r o f i t , a r e t h e
v e r y ones who a r e c r e a t i n g t h e r e d t a p e o r t r y i n g t o a v o i d p e o p l e
who g e t s i c k and c o v e r p e o p l e who a r e h e a l t h y .
A l l t h e p r o b l e m s we
have a r e n o t e l i m i n a t e d .
B u t t o e l i m i n a t e them i n t h e manner o f a
s i n g l e — p a y e r s y s t e m means t o f i g h t t h e i n s u r a n c e l o b b y , means t o
f i g h t the pharmaceutical lobby.
I t ' s a major war w i t h t h e most
e n t r e n c h e d p o w e r f u l i n t e r e s t s o f C o n g r e s s , and I'm n o t s u r e i f
p e o p l e a r e r e a d y t o s t a n d up and do b a t t l e w i t h t h a t .
MR. WILLIAMS:
anybody b u t Governor
Jerry
S e n a t o r Tsongas,
Brown.
your
turn.
MR. TSONGAS:
And t h a t l a s t q u e s t i o n was —
Brown was d e f l e c t e d .
(Laughs.)
MR. WILLIAMS:
These t h i n g s
A question for
directed
towards
happen.
MR. TSONGAS:
I f I were b e t t e r a t b i l l i a r d s , I ' d be b e t t e r a t
is debate, I t h i n k .
W e l l , I w o u l d l i k e t o ask Governor C l i n t o n ,
" i l l , t h i s campaign t h e l a s t c o u p l e o f weeks h a s become n a s t y . And
a s y o u know, t w o d a y s ago I began my r e s p o n s e ads.
The f a c t i s t h a t
w h a t ' s h a p p e n i n g between us -— and i t ' s r e a l l y a l l o f us —
really
o n l y s e r v e s George Bush.
And I c a l l e d upon Ron Brown t h e o t h e r day
t o g e t us t o g e t h e r and a g r e e t h a t we d o n ' t m e n t i o n each o t h e r i n
a d s , t h a t we s t o p t h e a t t a c k s and we f o c u s o u r a t t e n t i o n on George
Bush.
So I w o u l d ask y o u — I w i l l make a p l e d g e t h a t I w i l l p u l l
e v e r y t h i n g o f f and a l l o f my ads w i l l d e a l w i t h s u b s t a n c e , w i t h
G e o r g e Bush and what I s t a n d f o r , and I w o u l d a s k y o u t o do t h e same
thing.
GOV. CLINTON: W e l l , y o u say t h a t v e r y c a r e f u l l y so t h a t y o u r
n e g a t i v e ad means y o u c a n say a n y t h i n g y o u want as l o n g as y o u d o n ' t
u s e my name. You a t t a c k e d Ron — Bob K e r r e y and I t o t a l l y
d i s h o n e s t l y , c l a i m i n g t h a t we were-: f o r a m i d d l e - c l a s s t a x c u t t o
s w e l l t h e d e f i c i t , when y o u knew t h a t we p a i d f o r i t w i t h an
i n c r e a s e on u p p e r - i n c o m e p e o p l e . You d i d n ' t u s e o u r names, so y o u
c o u l d be d i s h o n e s t and say, "I'm n o t r u n n i n g a n e g a t i v e ad."
I did
not r u n a n e g a t i v e ad. I r a n an ad c o m p a r i n g y o u r p o s i t i o n s and
m i n e u s i n g y o u r w o r d s , y o u r c a l l t o economic arms i n Time magazine.
That i s n o t a n e g a t i v e ad. I t h i n k t h e American p e o p l e a r e e n t i t l e d
t o know what t h e d i f f e r e n c e s between o u r p o s i t i o n s a r e , and i f y o u
won't t e l l them, somebody needs t o .
MR. WILLIAMS: Governor
songas or Senator K e r r e y .
. ETX
Brown, y o u r q u e s t i o n
f o r Senator
�DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE
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PAGE 4-4
•
MR. BROWN: Yeah, I ' d l i k e — P a u l , I ' v e been r e a d i n g t h i s
" C a l l t o Arms," and I saw y o u g o t t h i s m o d i f i e d c a p i t a l g a i n s ;
y o u ' v e g o t some R&D t a x c r e d i t w h i c h we a l r e a d y h a v e ; y o u ' v e g o t
some s t u f f a b o u t t h e q u a r t e r l y r e p o r t s , about r e l i e v i n g d i r e c t o r s '
l i a b i l i t y and w e a k e n i n g t h e a n t i t r u s t l a w s , w h i c h I t h i n k
e s s e n t i a l l y h a s been done f o r r e s e a r c h p u r p o s e s .
What i s t h e s i l v e r
b u l l e t i n s i d e t h a t c a l l t o arms t h a t ' s g o i n g t o s t i m u l a t e t h i s
economy when we've been g o i n g t h r o u g h a l l t h e s e changes o v e r t h e
l a s t 10 y e a r s t h a t y o u ' r e t a l k i n g about'"'
MR. TSONGAS:
T h e r e i s no s i l v e r b u l l e t .
All right, this i s
r e a l l i f e , t h e r e a l w o r l d . You know, i n a d d i t i o n t o what Bob
m e n t i o n e d , I'm a l s o a r e a l e s t a t e d e v e l o p e r .
Imagine b e i n g i n
M a s s a c h u s e t t s r e a l e s t a t e i n t h e '30s.
You l e a r n s o m e t h i n g a l o n g
t h e way. What y o u l e a r n i s t h a t y o u c a n ' t b u i l d a b u i l d i n g i f y o u
can't f i l l i t .
I'm a l s o t h e d i r e c t o r o f seven c o m p a n i e s , l a r g e
c o m p a n i e s and s t r u g g l i n g s t a r t - u p s .
T h e r e i s no v e n t u r e c a p i t a l .
T h e r e i s no v e n t u r e c a p i t a l .
The J a p a n e s e t a k e t h e s e c o m p a n i e s ;
t h e y grow them, t h e y grow them, t h e y grow them, t h e y grow them. I n
t h i s c o u n t r y , t h e y a r e s t a r v i n g o u t t h e r e w i t h s m a l l c o m p a n i e s and
good i d e a s . The s i l v e r b u l l e t — y o u t a l k t o any s m a l l b u s i n e s s
person.
What do t h e y w a n t ? C r e d i t , c a p i t a l , t r a i n e d work f o r c e .
Those a r e n o t t h e s i l v e r b u l l e t s .
Those a r e t h e f o r c e s t h a t d r i v e
i nc
economy.
T h e r e ' s n o t h i n g magic -- h a r d w o r k , j u s t l i k e how we
i l t t h i s c o u n t r y i n t h e f i r s t p l a c e , everybody t o g e t h e r working
^rd.
MR. WILLIAMS:
q u e s t i o n f o r Senator
Thank y o u ,
Kerrey.
Mr. Tsongas.
Governor C l i n t o n ,
your
GOV. CLINTON:
Was I s u p p o s e d t o ask a q u e s t i o n ?
MR. WILLIAMS:
Yeah, t h a t ' s t h e way i t w o r k s o u t t h i s t i m e .
GOV. CLINTON:
I t h o u g h t i t was Brown.
Okay, I ' l l be g l a d t o .
I've
g o t t o r e a d j u s t my mind h e r e .
I ' d l i k e t o ask Senator K e r r e y
t h i s q u e s t i o n . W i t h r e g a r d t o t h e l a w e n f o r c e m e n t i s s u e s t h a t we
j u s t d i s c u s s e d on c r ime and d r u g s , e v e r y y e a r I have t o d i s t r i b u t e
f un d s t h a t a r e g i vert t o me by t h e f e d e r a l g o v e r n m e n t t o my l o c a l l a w
en f o r cement o f f i c i a 1s.
We t r y t o d e a l w i t h t h e d a y - t o - d a y t o u g h
p r o b l e m s o f d e a l i n g w i t h t h e d r u g war.
How c a n y o u a v o i d c u t b a c k s
i n s i gn i f i c a n t 1y i mp o r t a n t l a w e n f o r c e m e n t a r e a s i n t h e DEA, t h e
FBI,
i n a i d t o t h e s t a t e s and c i t i e s and p r o s e c u t o r s t o d e a l w i t h
t h e d r u g p r o b 1 em i f we h a v e a 2 5 - p e r c e n t c u t i n n o n - d i s c r e t i o n a r y —
or i n d i sc r e t i on ar y n o n - d e f e n s e s p e n d i n g ?
How c a n we do t h a t ?
SEN.- KERREY: S i m p l e .
T h a t ' s an easy a n s w e r .
First of a l l , I
f e e l l i k e t h e k i d t h a t g e t s p i c k e d l a s t f o r t h e b a s e b a l l team, y o u
now. Look, I — my f u n d a m e n t a l p r i n c i p l e i s , t h e f e d e r a l
v e r n m e n t ' s g o t t e n t o o b i g . And I'm p r e p a r e d t o come i n — I'm
r ig u i n g t o t a k e t h e number o f C a b i n e t s e c r e t a r i e s f r o m 14 down t o 7.
k
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��DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE
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I t gouges C o n g r e s s a b i t because we're g o i n g t o have 75 p e r c e n t
fewer o v e r s i g h t c o m m i t t e e s . I b e l i e v e democracy w o r k s b e s t a t t h e
local level.
The k i n d s o f g r a n t s t h a t y o u ' v e d e s c r i b e d a r e
p r e c i s e l y t h e s o r t o f t h i n g t h a t we need t o do. I i n t e n d t o f i g h t
w i t h t h e same e n e r g y t h a t George E^ush b r o u g h t t o t h e B2 and SDI f o r
f u l l f u n d i n g o f Head S t a r t .
I t ' s a c o m m u n i t y - b a s e d e f f o r t . My
h e a l t h c a r e p r o p o s a l t a k e s t h e f e d e r a l g o v e r n m e n t o u t o f i t and p u t s
i n t h e hands o f t h e s t a t e s t h e power t o be a b l e t o make d e c i s i o n s
a b o u t how we're g o i n g t o manage t h e c a r e .
I t r e d u c e s t h e s i z e , and
the growing s i z e , o f t h i s f e d e r a l government.
I mean, i t ' s odd t o
w a t c h George Bush, a s o - c a l l e d c o n s e r v a t i v e R e p u b l i c a n , a l o n g w i t h
R o n a l d Reagan, p r e s i d e o v e r m a s s i v e g r o w t h i n t h e f e d e r a l
g o v e r n m e n t ' s power.
I b e l i e v e t h a t democracy w o r k s b e s t a t t h e
l o c a l l e v e l , and I am c o m m i t t e d n o t j u s t t o g e t t h e d e f i c i t b e h i n d
us, b u t t o make t h i s g o v e r n m e n t work f o r u s t o r e d i s t r i b u t e t h e
d e c i s i o n s back t o t h e l o c a l l e v e l .
MR. WILLIAMS: A l l r i g h t , S e n a t o r K e r r e y , t h a n k you. Now we
go t o o u r r e b u t t a l segment and wrap-up t i m e .
G o v e r n o r Brown, we go
to you.
You h a v e 30 s e c o n d s t o —
MR. BROWN:
To s a y w h a t e v e r I want t o say?
MR. WILLIAMS:
Sounds l i k e i t t o me, y e a h .
MR. BROWN: Look, t o me i t ' s r e a l s i m p l e .
We've had some
f a i l u r e s these last ten years.
I t ' s b u i l d i n g up. The power i s
b e i n g c o n c e n t r a t e d a t t h e v e r y t o p . The e x e c u t i v e s i n t h e F o r t u n e
500 have i n c r e a s e d t h e i r p a y i n some c i r c u m s t a n c e s 2,000 p e r c e n t .
Our s e n a t o r s and congressmen i n c r e a s e d t h e i r p a y t o $130,000.
We're
r e w a r d i n g f a i l u r e and we're n o t i n v e s t i n g i n t h e A m e r i c a n p e o p l e . I
want a r e f o r m o f t h e p o l i t i c s .
I want a r e f o r m o f t h e t a x code. I
.
want a r e f o r m o f t h e h e a l t h s y s t e m , and I want t o i n v e s t h e r e i n
A m e r i c a w i t h h i g h - s p e e d t r a i n s , f u e l - e f f i c i e n t v e h i c l e s and a m a j o r
commitment t o end t h e m a s s i v e e n e r g y w a s t e . And i n t h a t commitment,
we c a n p u t m i l l i o n s and m i l l i o n s o f A m e r i c a n s t o w o r k .
MR. WILLIAMS:
Cli nton?
G o v e r n o r J e r r y Brown, t h a n k y o u .
Governor
Bill
GOV. CLINTON:
I g o t i n t o t h i s r a c e f o r p r e s i d e n t because I ' v e
w o r k e d as a g o v e r n o r f o r 11 y e a r s i n a s o u t h e r n s t a t e t r y i n g t o g e t
and keep j o b s , e d u c a t e p e o p l e , h e l p p e o p l e s o l v e t h e i r p r o b l e m s ,
make g o v e r n m e n t l e s s b u r e a u c r a t i c b u t more e f f e c t i v e , b r i n g b u s i n e s s
and w o r k i n g p e o p l e t o g e t h e r .
And I saw a l l t h a t b e i n g d e s t r o y e d a t
t h e n a t i o n a l l e v e l , where t h e m i d d l e c l a s s i s g o i n g d o w n h i l l ,
p o v e r t y i s e x p l o d i n g and we've l o s t o u r economic l e a d e r s h i p . I
b e l i e v e I ' v e o f f e r e d t h e b e s t c o m p r e h e n s i v e economic p l a n t o
o r g a n i z e o u r economy, g i v e r e a l i n c e n t i v e s t o i n v e s t , b u t most
p o r t a n t , p u t p e o p l e f i r s t ; e d u c a t e e v e r y b o d y a n d g i v e them a
F
_hance t o compete and w i n .
_h
. ETX
�DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE
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M ' WILLIAMS:
R.
PAGE 4-6
Thank y o u , Governor C l i n t o n .
Senator
Kerrey.
SEN. KERREY: W e l l , I d o n ' t t h i n k y o u have o f f e r e d t h e b e s t
plan, B i l l .
I t ' s a good one, b u t i t ' s n o t t h e b e s t .
I mean, t h e
p r o b l e m i s t h a t o u r g o v e r n m e n t h a s been o r g a n i z e d t o f i g h t a C o l d
War f o r 45 y e a r s and p e o f i l e now a r e r e l u c t a n t t o change — n o t i n
the country.
I n t h e c o u n t r y , p e o p l e know t h a t we need t o change,
t h a t we're i n t h e economic f i g h t o f our l i f e .
I intend t o take t h e
power o f t h e p r e s i d e n c y and work t o t r a n s f o r m A m e r i c a , t o c r e a t e
real jobs.
I ' v e done i t as a b u s i n e s s p e r s o n p r i o r t o g e t t i n g i n t o
p o l i t i c s , and I ' l l be t h e b e s t p r e s i d e n t t h a t s m a l l b u s i n e s s e v e r
had.
We'll n o t o n l y c r e a t e j o b s i n t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s o f America,
b u t w e ' l l d e m o n s t r a t e t h a t we can compete w i t h Japan and Germany f o r
t h e p u r p o s e o f w o r k i n g , w o r k i n g h a r d t o c o n v e r t o l d enemies i n t o new
customers.
MR. WILLIAMS: S e n a t o r Tsongas, I d o n ' t want y o u t o f e e l
t h e l a s t guy p i c k e d f o r t h e b a s e b a l l team.
In fact, t h i s i s
a l p h a b e t i c a l , b u t i t i s your t u r n .
like
MR. TSONGAS: G i v e n y o u r b a s e b a l l team, I w o u l d a c c e p t .
(Scattered laughter.)
Jimmy C a r t e r r a n f o r p r e s i d e n t and he won
cause he had a v i s i o n and a p u r p o s e .
My p u r p o s e -- when I
r t e d , George Bush was a t 91 p e r c e n t . My p u r p o s e i s a new
m o c r a t i c P a r t y , t r u e t o i t s t r a d i t i o n s on i n d i v i d u a l r i g h t s and t o
t h e e n v i r o n m e n t , b u t t h e D e m o c r a t i c P a r t y must r e a c h o u t t o
i n d e p e n d e n t s and t o R e p u b l i c a n s w i t h a p r o — e c o n o m i c g r o w t h message.
We have t o r e a c h o u t t o b u s i n e s s and u n d e r s t a n d t h a t we have t o be
t h e p a r t y o f economic g r o w t h .
That c o m b i n a t i o n , c o m m i t t e d t o
i n d i v i d u a l r i g h t s and t h e e n v i r o n m e n t on s o c i a l i s s u e s and c o m m i t t e d
t o economic g r o w t h , t h a t i s t h e p a r t y t h a t c a n w i n .
T h a t ' s how we
can b e a t George Edjsh, and I t h i n k we're g o i n g t o do t h a t come
November.
MR. WILLIAMS: Thank y o u , S e n a t o r Tsongas.
On b e h a l f o f t h e
A t l a n t a Jour n a l - C o n s t i t u t i on and Channel 2, I want t o thank: t h e
c a n d i d a t e s who a r e h e r e , S e n a t o r K e r r e y o u t t h e r e i n Denver, and my
f e l l o w p a n e l i s t s , B i l l N i g u t o f Channel 2 and C y n t h i a Tucker o f t h e
A t l a n t a Const i t u t i on .
Thank, y o u v e r y much.
END
. ETX
�»
DEMOCRATIC. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE FORUM
AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND TAWES THEATER
COLLEGE PARK, MD
AS BROADCAST BY MARYLAND PUBLIC TELEVISION
SUNDAY, MARCH 1,
1992
. STX
BOB BECKEL: G e n t l e m e n .
Thank y o u Nate.
You've done a
t e r r i f i c job.
I a l s o want t o t h a n k t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f M a r y l a n d and
t h e M a r y l a n d D e m o c r a t i c par t y and M a r y l a n d P u b l i c TV f o r t h e i r
e f f o r t s i n p u t t i n g t h i s event t o g e t h e r .
My name i s Bob B e c k e l .
I ' l l be m o d e r a t i n g t o n i g h t ' s f o r u m i n
w h i c h f o u r m a j o r d e m o c r a t i c p r e s i d e n t i a l c a n d i d a t e s w i l l be d e b a t i n g
a s e r i e s o f p o l i c y q u e s t i o n s a s k e d by s t u d e n t s and f a c u l t y f r o m t h e
u n i v e r s i t y ' s School o f P u b l i c A f f a i r s .
S e n a t o r K e r r e y o f N e b r a s k a was u n a b l e
scheduling c o n f l i c t s .
t o a t t e n d because o f
The r u l e s f o r t o n i g h t ' s d e b a t e a r e f o l l o w s :
t h e r e w i l l be no
o p e n i n g s t a t e m e n t s ; f o l l o w i n g t h e i n t r o d u c t i o n o f t h e c a n d i d a t e s we
w i l l — i f t i m e p e r m i t s — e x p l o r e up t o seven p o l i c y a r e a s ; t h e y
i n c l u d e , t h e economy, h e a l t h c a r e , c i v i l r i g h t s and c i v i l l i b e r t i e s ,
e e n v i r o n m e n t , e d u c a t i o n , f o r e i g n p o l i c y and r e p r o d u c t i v e r i g h t s .
I b e g i n each t o p i c a c a n d i d a t e w i l l be a s k e d an i n i t i a l q u e s t i o n
•
om e i t h e r a s t u d e n t o r a f a c u l t y member. Each c a n d i d a t e w i l l have
up t o a m i n u t e and h a l f t o r e s p o n d .
I f time p e r m i t s , follow-up
q u e s t i o n s may be a s k e d by t h e m o d e r a t o r .
S e a t i n g and o r d e r o f q u e s t i o n s were d e t e r m i n e d by l o t .
The
d e b a t e w i l l c o n c l u d e w i t h each c a n d i d a t e h a v i n g one and a h a l f
m i n u t e s f o r c l o s i n g s t a t e m e n t s — o r d e r was a l s o d e t e r m i n e d by l o t .
S p e a k i n g — we w i l l t r y t o be f a i r and e q u i t a b l e a s p o s s i b l e
w i t h t i m e . And s p e a k i n g o f f a i r n e s s , I w o u l d a p p r e c i a t e i t i f t h e
a u d i e n c e w o u l d r e f r a i n f r o m a p p l a u s e d u r i n g o r f o l l o w i n g any o f t h e
candidates' responses.
I t w i l l o n l y t a k e t i m e away f r o m y o u r
c a n d i d a t e and t h e o v e r a l l d i s c u s s i o n . B u t , o f c o u r s e , f e e l f r e e t o
a p p l a u d t h e m o d e r a t o r any t i m e you'd l i k e •— C 1 a u g h t e r / a p p l a u s e . )
It's
n i c e t o be a l o c a l b o y .
G e n t l e m e n — g e n t l e m e n , y o u ' l l h a v e o n e and a h a l f m i n u t e s
your r e s p o n s e s .
A red l i g h t , which I w i l l c o n t r o l here, w i l l
i n d i c a t e a neced t o wrap up. P l e a s e do me a f a v o r , my m o t h e r ' s
w a t c h i n g t o n i g h t , I ' d l i k e t o be a b l e t o g e t o u t i n t i m e .
for
A l l r i g h t l e t ' s — t h a n k y o u , a n d l e t ' s b e g i n by i n t r o d u c i n g
^e c a n d i d a t e s .
To my i m m e d i a t e l e f t , G o v e r n o r B i l l C l i n t o n o f
|:ansas — ( a p p l a u s e ) — S e n a t o r Tom H a r k i n o f Iowa —
p i a u s e / c h e e r s ) — f o r m e r G o v e r n o r J e r r y Brown o f C a l i f o r n i a —
.ETX
�W
1
MARYLAND DEMO DEBATE-03/01/92
. STX
piause) —
piause.)
PAGE #2
f o r m e r S e n a t o r Paul Tsongas o f M a s s a c h u s e t t s
—
«
Okay.
Let's
roll.
The f i r s t
question
i s f o r Senator
C o u l d y o u come t o t h e mike —
i d e n t i f y y o u r s e l f please.
who's g o t t h e q u e s t i o n
MR. SCHILLING Cph):
A ffairs.
Schilling,
Professor
Tsongas.
— and
t h e School o f P u b l i c
Mr. Tsongas, by a l l a c c o u n t s , t h e i n n e r c i t i e s o f most
A m e r i c a n m e t r o p o l i t a n a r e a s — Caudio b r e a k ) — s e r i o u s l y , even
d i s a s t r o u s l y d u r i n g t h e past two or t h r e e decades.
Do y o u have a n y
p o l i c i e s i n mind — a n y s p e c i f i c m e a s u r e s , n o t f o r economic r e c o v e r y
i n g e n e r a l , b u t measures s p e c i f i c a l l y d i r e c t e d t o w a r d h e l p i n g
A m e r i c a n i n n e r c i t i e s r e g a i n some o f t h e i r v i t a l i t y ?
MR. TSONGAS: L e t me s a y t h a t I l i v e i n such a c i t y .
I live
i n Lowel1 Massachusetts.
We l o s t o u r t e x t i l e s and t h e c i t y
i mp1oded. And I grew up d u r i n g t h a t d e c a y , s o , I know w h e r e o f y o u
speak.
T h e r e a r e t w o t h i n g s we have t o do. One, p r o v i d e t h e
f u n d a m e n t a l s , i n t e r m s o f t h e p r o g r a m s n e c e s s a r y t o make t h e s e
t i e s v i a b l e . You t a l k a b o u t head s t a r t , h e a l t h c a r e , a i d f o r t h e
Jieless, t h a t k i n d o f t h i n g .
B u t u l t i m a t e l y — and B a l t i m o r e i s a
od e x a m p l e — y o u have t o u s e t h e g o v e r n m e n t t o l e v e r a g e i n
p r i v a t e investment.
A l l t h e f e d e r a l money i n t h e w o r l d w i l l n o t
make i t p o s s i b l e t o b r i n g back o u r c i t i e s u n l e s s y o u p r o v i d e t h e
wherewithal t o t h e p r i v a t e investment.
T h a t ' s what we d i d i n
L o w e l l , t h a t ' s what y o u d i d i n B a l t i m o r e .
«
So, t h i n g s l i k e t h e f r e e e n t e r p r i s e z o n e s , t h e UDAG Cph)
p r o g r a m , i n c e n t i v e s t o g i v e t h e p r i v a t e s e c t o r t h e i n c e n t i v e t o come
i n and i n v e s t i n t h e c i t i e s .
T h a t i s t h e o n l y hope f o r c i t i e s l o n g term.
The Bush A d m i n i s t r a t i o n h a s no c o n c e r n a b o u t c i t i e s . I t ' s
not t h e i r c o n s t i t u e n c y .
We w i l l c a r e b e c a u s e t h a t ' s o u r
constituency.
And t h e s e c i t i e s have t o come back and t h e y w i l l come
back.
to
MR. BECKEL:
respond?
Governor
Okay.
G e n t l e m e n , i t ' s open.
Would anybody
like
Brown.
MR. BROWN: Yes. I t h i n k t h i s i s one o f t h e weaknesses i n
S e n a t o r T s o n g a s ' — f o r m e r S e n a t o r Tsongas' p l a n , b e c a u s e he t a l k s
a b o u t c a p i t a l g a i n s b r e a k s and t h i n g s t h a t m i g h t h a v e some e f f e c t on
a — s t a r t e d up b u s i n e s s e s .
But t h e p r o b l e m i n t h i s c o u n t r y
l i o n s o f p o o r p e o p l e who've f a l l e n
. ETX
i s t h e r e a r e m i l l i o n s and
c o m p l e t e l y below t h e s a f e t y
�MARYLAND DEMO DEBATE-03/01/92
• . STX
f
PAGE #3
wk and t h e y need i m m e d i a t e h e l p .
And I b e l i e v e an e n t e r p r i s e zone
W f i f t y o f t h e h a r d e s t p r e s s e d a r e a s where b u s i n e s s e s who w o u l d go
iere
l o c a t e h i r e t h e p e o p l e t h e r e , and be g i v e n a t a x i n c e n t i v e —
a t a x b r e a k — f o r up t o t e n y e a r s — w o u l d p u t economic d e v e l o p m e n t
i n t h e p r i v a t e s e c t o r r i g h t where i t i s n ' t now.
F
And s e c o n d l y , a w e l f a r e v o u c h e r , w h e r e i n a p e r s o n on w e l f a r e
c o u l d t r a d e i n t h e w e l f a r e check t o t h e e m p l o y e r and u s e t h a t t o
b u i l d on a s a l a r y .
And t h e n be a b l e t o keep t h e M e d i c a i d , t h e f o o d
s t a m p s , and o t h e r b e n e f i t s , and t h e n r e d u c e them o v e r a f i v e year
per i od.
CONTINUED ON PAGE 2-1
.ETX
�MARYLAND DEMO DEBATE-03/01/92
• . STX
PAGE 2-1
And t h e n , t h e t h i r d t h i n g , o f c o u r s e , i s some k i n d o f p u b l i c
s e r v i c e corps t h a t would a l l o w a p u b l i c s e r v i c e e n t r y o p p o r t u n i t y
f o r a l o t o f p e o p l e t h a t m i g h t n o t have a n o t h e r c h o i c e .
The p r o b l e m
t h a t ' s h o l d i n g u s b a c k , I b e l i e v e , y o u ' v e g o t t o o many p e o p l e who
are l i v i n g c o m p l e t e l y below t h e l i n e .
And i f we want t o have an
A m e r i c a t h a t w o r k s , we have t o make s u r e i t w o r k s f o r e v e r y o n e . And
t h i s c o u n t r y , more t h a n f o r e i g n a i d , more t h a n m i l i t a r y d e f e n s e ,
more t h a n a n y t h i n g e l s e , o u g h t t o make i t s f u n d a m e n t a l commitment
j u s t i c e , s o c i a l and economic j u s t i c e ,
f o r every s i n g l e American.
MR. BECKEL:
Senator?
SEN. HARKIN: U n l e s s and u n t i l we g e t r i d o f s u p p l y - s i d e
t r i c k l e - d o w n e c o n o m i c s , none o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t e i t h e r Mr. Brown o r
Mr. Tsongas s a y s i s g o i n g t o w o r k .
T h a t ' s t h e f i r s t t h i n g we've g o t
t o d o , g e t r i d o f t r i c k l e - d o w n s u p p l y - s i d e e c o n o m i c s . You know, we
t a k e y o u r t a x e s , we g i v e i t t o t h e few a t t h e t o p ; we g i v e i t t o t h e
b i g c o r p o r a t i o n s , and t r u s t them t o do w h a t ' s r i g h t .
Look what i t ' s
done t o u s . And y e t , Mr. Tsongas p r e a c h e s more o f t h e same
philosophy.
What I s a y we have t o do i s t o g e t j o b s f o r p e o p l e .
The b e s t
s o c i a l p r o g r a m i s a good j o b . And t h a t ' s t r u e i n o u r c i t i e s .
T h a t ' s why I ' v e come up w i t h an economic p l a n , n e x t y e a r , t o p u t
pr a m i l l i o n p e o p l e back t o w o r k , and most o f t h o s e w i l l be i n o u r
ies.
Because I p r o p o s e s e n d i n g a b o u t $35 b i l l i o n o u t o f t h e
c e d i v i d e n d — i t ' s t i m e t o q u i t s p e n d i n g s o much money i n E u r o p e
and Japan d e f e n d i n g them f r o m who knows w h a t , b r i n g i t home, and
i n v e s t i t i n o u r c i t i e s f o r a change, $35 b i l l i o n .
I n e v e r y c i t y i n A m e r i c a , t h e r e a r e p l a n s on t h e s h e l f f o r .
s t r e e t s and r o a d s a n d b r i d g e s , s c h o o l i m p r o v e m e n t p r o g r a m s , sewer
and w a t e r ; no money t o f u n d i t . I f we g e t t h a t money down t h e r e ,
t h a t ' s g o i n g t o p u t p e o p l e t o work: i n t h e c i t i e s .
That's going t o
make o u r c i t i e s work b e t t e r , b u i l d t h e i n f r a s t r u c t u r e o f t h e c i t i e s .
And t h e n , a t t h e f e d e r a l l e v e l , i f we j o i n i n i m p r o v i n g
s c h o o l s by m a k i n g t h e f e d e r a l g o v e r n m e n t more o f a p a r t n e r i n o u r
i n n e r c i t y s c h o o l s , r a t h e r t h a n j u s t l e a v i n g i t up t o p r o p e r t y - t a x
f l a y e r s ; l o w - i n c o m e h o u s i n g t h a t needs t o be b u i l t ; and
rehabilitation
i n our c i t i e s .
I t ' s a c r y i n g shame we have more
h o m e l e s s -- we have more abandoned a p a r t m e n t s i n W a s h i n g t o n , DC t h a n
we h a v e h o m e l e s s .
We o u g h t t o f i x them up. We need t o b e a u t i f y o u r
c i t i e s and make o u r s t r e e t s s a f e a g a i n .
And I b e l i e v e t h a t ' s a
federal obligation.
MR. BECKEL:
A l l right,
Senator.
Governor?
GOV. CLINTON: Bob, I r e l e a s e d an u r b a n p o l i c y h e r e i n
y l a n d , i n B a l t i m o r e w i t h Mayor Schmoke j u s t a few d a y s ago. I t
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�MARYLAND DEMO DEBATE-03/01/92
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PAGE 2-2
«
|LUse5 on t h r e e t h i n g s :
i n c r e a s i n g economic o p p o r t u n i t y , g i v i n g
P'ple t h e power t o change t h e i r own l i v e s and e x p e c t i n g them t o
have r e s p o n s i b l y i n d o i n g s o , and r e c r e a t i n g a new sense o f
community i n our c i t i e s .
And l e t me j u s t g i v e y o u some s p e c i f i c
examp 1es.
One, e m u l a t e t h e S o u t h S h o r e Development Bank, w h i c h
r e v o l u t i o n i s e d economic o p p o r t u n i t y on t h e S o u t h S h o r e o f C h i c a g o ,
i n e v e r y major c i t y i n t h i s c o u n t r y .
Two, c r e a t e u r b a n e n t e r p r i s e z o n e s , r e s t o r e i n m o d i f i e d
fashion the h i s t o r i c preservation tax c r e d i t .
S e c o n d l y , s e t up a
h o u s i n g p r o g r a m t h a t i s modeled on t h e t h i n g s t h a t work h e r e i n
B a l t i m o r e , l i k e t h e Nehemiah p a r t n e r s h i p s .
Do some o f t h e t h i n g s
t h a t J a c k Kemp w a n t s t o do t h a t George Bush won't f u n d .
Emphasize
l e s s b u r e a u c r a t i c , more i n n o v a t i v e p a r t n e r s h i p s f o r l o w - i n c o m e home
owner sh i p.
Do
for
who
soc
T h i r d , t a k e on t h e p r o b l e m o f c r i m e and d r u g s i n t h e c i t i e s .
i t i n an a g g r e s s i v e way: d r u g t r e a t m e n t on demand; more p o l i c e
c o m m u n i t y p o l i c i n g ; more c o m m u n i t y - b a s e d b o o t camps f o r p e o p l e
s h o u l d n ' t go t o p r i s o n , b u t need t o be r e c o n n e c t e d t o o u r
i ety.
F o u r t h , have a h e a l t h c a r e s t r a t e g y
i n n e r c i t i e s and i n t h e s c h o o l s .
that
puts health
clinics
T h i s i s t h e beginning o f a s t r a t e g y o f urban r e n o v a t i o n . I
have a l o n g - t e r m economic p l a n .
I hope w e ' l l g e t t o d i s c u s s i t .
E<ut, v e r y f r a n k l y , t h e b e s t l o n g - t e r m economic s t r a t e g i e s , u n l e s s we
d e a l w i t h t h e t e r r i b l e s o c i a l and economic p r o b l e m s o f t h e c i t i e s ,
w i l l n o t be s u c c e s s f u l .
I s p e n t t o o many t i m e s — t o o much t i m e i n
i n n e r c i t y s c h o o l s t o know t h a t we have t o do more, s p e c i f i c a l l y
d i r e c t e d toward the c i t i e s .
MR. BECKEL:
Okay.
Go ahead, S e n a t o r .
SEN. HARKIN:
I j u s t w a n t e d t o add a g a i n on t h e s c h o o l
s y s t e m , I want t o know where i n t h e C o n s t i t u t i o n i s i t w r i t t e n t h a t
e d u c a t i o n h a s t o be f u n d e d on t h e b a c k s o f p r o p e r t y t a x p a y e r s . You
won't f i n d i t a n y w h e r e i n t h e C o n s t i t u t i o n o f t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s , and
y e t t h a t ' s what happened.
I happen t o l i v e i n s u b u r b a n V i r g i n i a .
We h a v e good s c h o o l s , a l o t o f h i g h - i n c o m e p e o p l e t h e r e .
Five miles
away, D i s t r i c t o f C o l u m b i a , l o w i n c o m e , l o w p r o p e r t y t a x e s , l o w
schools.
T h a t ' s n o t f a i r , and t h a t ' s n o t r i g h t .
I t ' s not r i g h t i n
B a l t i m o r e and n o t r i g h t i n any o t h e r c i t y i n A m e r i c a .
And t h a t ' s why I ' v e c a l l e d f o r t h e f e d e r a l g o v e r n m e n t , as a
g o a l w i t h i n t h e n e x t t e n y e a r s , , t o become more o f a p a r t n e r i n
e l e m e n t a r y and s e c o n d a r y e d u c a t i o n .
I n 1980, t h e f e d e r a l g o v e r n m e n t
t ^ o v i d e d a b o u t 10-1/2 p e r c e n t o f t h e l o c a l s c h o o l d i s t r i c t ' s b u d g e t ,
^ ^ f e t ' s now down t o 5 p e r c e n t .
W e l l , we're g o i n g t o g e t t h a t t h i n g
^ ^ K k up a g a i n and make t h e f e d e r a l g o v e r n m e n t i m p r o v e o u r s c h o o l s i n
our i n n e r c i t i e s .
. ETX
�MARYLAND DEMO DEBATE-03/01/92
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PAGE 2-3
MR. BECKEL: L e t me ask a q u e s t i o n .
G o v e r n o r Brown, y o u ' v e
Been q u i t e c r i t i c a l , among o t h e r s , S e n a t o r Tsongas, a b o u t b r i n g i n g
b u s i n e s s back i n t o t h e D e m o c r a t i c P a r t y .
Do y o u b e l i e v e , a s many
do, t h a t w i t h o u t t h e s u p p o r t o f a t l e a s t p a r t o f t h e b u s i n e s s
c o m m u n i t y t h a t t h e D e m o c r a t s c a n w i n t h e W h i t e House?
CONTINUED ON PAGE 3-1
.ETX
�MARYLAND DEMO DEBATE-03/01/92
PAGE 3-1
MR. BROWN: W e l l , b u s i n e s s c r e a t e s w e a l t h . We want b u s i n e s s ,
of c o u r s e .
B u t we a l s o want s o c i a l j u s t i c e and we want t r a d e u n i o n
c a p a c i t y t o s u r v i v e and g i v e w o r k e r s t h e r i g h t t o own a p i e c e o f
management, t o e m p l o y e e s t o c k o p t i o n s , and t o be a b l e t o u s e t h e
p e n s i o n f u n d s w h i c h a r e t h e d e f e r r e d wages o f w o r k e r s , g e t t h a t
working f o r American j o b s .
And l e t ' s g e t some b a l a n c e h e r e so t h a t
t h e N a t i o n a l Labor R e l a t i o n s A c t r e a l l y w o r k s as a s u p p o r t i v e arm t o
make s u r e t h a t t h o s e who w i s h t o be r e p r e s e n t e d c a n do so and c a n
enforce their c o l l e c t i v e bargaining contracts.
So i t a b a l a n c e .
L e t ' s have a t a x e n v i r o n m e n t and t h a t ' s why I s u p p o r t a f l a t
t a x a n d a v a l u e added o f no more t h a n 13 p e r c e n t ; keep i t s t a b l e ;
d o n ' t change i t e v e r y t w o o r t h r e e y e a r s w i t h new l i t t l e l o l l i p o p s
f i r s t i n t h e m i d d l e c l a s s and t h e n f o r b u s i n e s s .
No. Keep i t
straight.
Keep i t c l e a r .
L e t b u s i n e s s expense a l l t h e i r
equipment
the
f i r s t y e a r — 100 p e r c e n t — b u t keep i t b a l a n c e d b e c a u s e t h e
u n d e r l y i n g commitment o f t h i s p a r t y i s t o s o c i a l j u s t i c e —
MR. BECKEL:
MR. BROWN:
•
ut
Senator
—
MR. BECKEL:
or —
—
and w i t h o u t t h a t ,
Senator
MR. TSONGAS:
Tsongas
nothing
(happens?).
Tsongas, i s i t l o l l i p o p s y o u ' r e
talking
Excuse me?
MR. BECKEL: When he s a i d l o l l i p o p s , I assume he was meaning
i n t h a t — ( w e ' r e h e a r i n g ? ) S a n t a C l a u s a l o t , s o l o l l i p o p s i s a new
i n t e r j e c t i o n i n t o t h i s debate —
MR. TSONGAS: I have a l w a y s t a k e n a s t r o n g
s t and my e n t i r e — (1 a u g h t e r / a p p l a u s e ) —
anti-1ol1ipop
I oppose T w i n k l e e c o n o m i c s — ( l a u g h t e r ) —
been t a l k i n g a b o u t .
T a s t e s g r e a t . No n u t r i t i o n a l
( l a u g h t e r ) — l e t me make a s e r i o u s p o i n t .
t h i s i s what we've
v a l u e . So —
The New H a m p s h i r e p r i m a r y , I won among D e m o c r a t s .
That's
known.
But I g o t i n t o t h e independents ( t h e ? ) margin ( i n c r e a s e ? ) .
And v e r y few p e o p l e u n d e r s t a n d I came i n t h i r d i n t h e R e p u b l i c a n
primary.
( L a u g h t e r . ) T h i r t y - s i x h u n d r e d R e p u b l i c a n s who c o u l d have
v o t e d f o r t h e P r e s i d e n t o r P a t Buchanan c h o s e n o t t o . They a r e
m o d e r a t e R e p u b l i c a n s o u t t h e r e t h a t w i l l come t o u s i f we g i v e them
a home, who a r e m o d e r a t e and r e s p o n s i b l e on s o c i a l i s s u e s b u t want a
D e m o c r a t i c p a r t y t h a t c o u l d have economic messages t h a t make s e n s e .
MR. BECKEL:
GOV. CLINTON:
. ETX
Okay.
Could
we have a q u i c k r e s p o n s e
I want t o r e s p o n d
t o that
—
—
�MARYLAND DEMO DEBATE-03/01/92
TX
MP. BECKEL: Go ahead.
Clinton — (laughter) —
PAGE 3-2
Go ahead —
go ahead, Governor
GOV. CLINTON:
I t h i n k , t h a t happened, b u t I t h i n k , i t ' s
because p e o p l e g o t t h e idea r a t h e r t h a n t h e s p e c i f i c s .
I t h i n k we
s h o u l d b e p r o - b u s i n e s s and p r o - g r o w t h .
The d i f f e r e n c e between me
and S e n a t o r Tsongas i s , I am f o r t a r g e t e d i n c e n t i v e s .
Time m a g a z i n e
s a i d I h a d t h e most s p e c i f i c economic p r o g r a m o f any c a n d i d a t e . I'm
f o r an i n v e s t m e n t t a x c r e d i t .
I'm f o r a new b u s i n e s s t a x c r e d i t .
I'm f o r m o d i f i c a t i o n s i n t h e r e a l e s t a t e i n v e s t m e n t r u l e s .
I'm f o r
indexing of c a p i t a l gains.
I am a g a i n s t an a c r o s s - t h e - b o a r d c u t i n
t h e c a p i t a l g a i n s t a x . We do n o t need t h e b e s t p r e s i d e n t W a l l
S t r e e t ever had.
T h a t ' s what Mr. Tsongas s a i d he w a n t e d t o b e . We t r i p l e d t h e
s t o c k m a r k e t i n t h e 1980s.
Wages went down.
The work week g o t
longer.
Our p r o d u c t i v i t y c o n t i n u e d t o d e c l i n e r e l a t i v e t o o u r
competitors.
I'm n o t f o r g i v i n g anybody s o m e t h i n g f o r n o t h i n g .
He's been t a l k i n g a b o u t S a n t a C l a u s .
Look what happened t o G e n e r a l
Motors.
We c u t t h e c a p i t a l g a i n s t a x b r e a k f o u r t i m e s between '78
and '86. We g o t n o t h i n g f o r i t .
An a c r o s s t h e b o a r d c a p i t a l g a i n s
tax c u t f o r i n v e s t o r s i s a mistake.
L e t ' s p u t t h e money i n t o
p u t t i n g o u r p e o p l e f i r s t and e d u c a t i o n and t r a i n i n g and d e v e l o p i n g a
s e n s e o f b a l a n c e and p r o g r e s s t o g e t h e r i n t h i s c o u n t r y .
MR. BECKEL:
Senator
Harkin?
SEN. HARKIN:
I'm g o i n g t o r e s p o n d t o t h i s .
This r e a l l y i s
what i s h a p p e n i n g i n t h i s p r i m a r y .
Mr. Tsongas h a s j u s t l a i d o u t
what we D e m o c r a t s have t o d e c i d e .
A r e we g o i n g t o be Democrats o r
a r e we g o i n g t o keep t h e h e a r t and s o u l o f o u r p a r t y o r a r e we g o i n g
t o t r y t o be more l i k e R e p u b l i c a n s .
I n 1988 — ( a p p l a u s e ) — i n
1988, George Bush g o t e l e c t e d w i t h 28 p e r c e n t o f t h e e l i g i b l e v o t e
i n America.
M i k e D u k a k i s g o t 25-1/2 p e r c e n t .
Mr. Tsongas s a y s we
have t o s e l l o u t o u r h e a r t and s o u l t o g e t some o f t h o s e 28 p e r c e n t
t o v o t e f o r u s . I s a y no. I s a y l e t ' s be s t r o n g f o r t h e D e m o c r a t i c
p a r t y and o u r p r i n c i p l e s .
L e t ' s b r i n g back some o f t h o s e t h a t v o t e d
f o r Reagan.
L e t ' s go t o t h o s e t w o o u t o f f o u r t h a t d i d n ' t v o t e t h e
l a s t t i m e and g i v e them a r e a s o n t o j o i n t h e D e m o c r a t i c p a r t y .
(A pi p 1 a u s e / c h e e r s. )
MR. BECKEL: Okay. We're g o i n g t o -— w e ' r e g o i n g t o move on
-- w e ' r e g o i n g t o move on t o t h e n e x t — n e x t s e c t i o n -MR. BROWN:
I want t o make one p o i n t
MR. BECKEL: Yeah — y e a h , I know —
g o i n g t o g i v e y o u a c h a n c e b u t we —
MR. BROWN:
MR. BECKEL:
. ETX
I t ' s about
economics
on S e n a t o r
Tsongas
—
I know y o u do, and I'm
—
Can y o u do i t i n 10 s e c o n d s ?
�• MARYLAND DEMO DEBATE-03/01/92
PAGE 3-3
MR. BROWN: Yeah.
I want t o s a y t h a t h a v i n g r e a d — h a v i n g
r e a d t h i s c a l l t o arms, my o b j e c t i o n i s t h a t I d o n ' t see a n y t h i n g i n
t h e r e t h a t i s g o i n g t o h e l p t h e l a r g e i n d u s t r i e s t h a t have t o
compete w i t h Japan.
You c a n spawn a l o t o f new i n d u s t r i e s and
we've done t h a t i n C a l i f o r n i a i n a way t h a t l e a d s t h e w o r l d . The
p r o b l e m i s when t h e y g e t t o be b i l l i o n d o l l a r i n d u s t r y , t h e y g e t r u n
o v e r by t h e b i g g e r J a p a n e s e i n d u s t r y .
stay
MR. BECKEL: A l l r i g h t .
A l l r i g h t — S e n a t o r , I'm g o i n g t o
i n G r e e n w i c h Mean Time.
Go ahead.
You g i v e a r e s p o n s e —
MP. TSONGAS:
I j u s t want t o e s t a b l i s h a p a t t e r n .
answered e v e r y q u e s t i o n .
I ' v e never m e n t i o n e d anybody's
Okay.
(Applause.)
GOV. CLINTON:
Do y o u want
t o answer
I have
name.
that?
SEN. HARKIN: Yeah.
All right.
Mr. Tsongas was t h e f i r s t
one t o a t t a c k me l a s t summer i n B o s t o n , and d o n ' t y o u f o r g e t i t —
GOV. CLINTON:
MR. BECKEL:
SEN. HARKIN:
piause.)
That's r i g h t .
Okay.
All right.
L e t me
—
No more o f t h i s s e l f - r i g h t e o u s n e s s .
Okay?
MR. BECKEL:
I'm g o i n g t o t r y t o a t t a c k t h i s p r o g r a m . A l l
right"'
(.Applause.)
A l l right, folks.
Please.
Now, l i s t e n . I
warned y o u t h i s i s a s h o r t p r o g r a m .
P l e a s e , g i v e me a b r e a k h e r e .
W i l l you'"' Now, t h e n e x t q u e s t i o n i s d i r e c t e d t o Governor C l i n t o n on
health care.
P l e a s e i d e n t i f y y o u r s e l f and a s k y o u r q u e s t i o n .
Q
H i . I'm Karen H a i n Cph). I'm a m a s t e r s d e g r e e
c a n d i d a t e a t t h e School o f P u b l i c A f f a i r s .
I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t each
of y o u has espoused a p r o p o s a l t h a t would improve Americans' access
t o health care.
But p e o p l e a r e a l s o w o r r i e d about t h e i n c r e a s e d
c o s t t h a t t h e y ' v e seen.
So my q u e s t i o n f o r y o u i s t w o - f o l d . One:
E x a c t l y who i s g o i n g t o bear t h e b r u n t o f t h e c o s t f o r t h e i n c r e a s e d
access?
And t w o , by what means c a n y o u a s s u r e u s t h a t t h e c r i s i s
w i l l n o t c o n t i n u e t o e s c a l a t e f o r m e d i c a l care'"'
GOV. CLINTON: T h a t ' s an e x c e l l e n t q u e s t i o n .
U n l e s s we c a n
c o n t r o l t h e c o s t o f h e a l t h c a r e , w e ' l l n e v e r h a v e enough money i n
t h i s b u d g e t t o i n v e s t i n A m e r i c a and o u r p e o p l e and t h e i r
p r o d u c t i v i t y i n a d j u s t i n g t o t h e c h a n g e s i n t h e w o r l d and A m e r i c a n
i n d u s t r y w i l l n e v e r be a b l e t o compete.
I t h i n k y o u have t o b e g i n
w i t h n a t i o n a l h e a l t h coverage w i t h a cost c o n t r o l approach.
Number
one, mandate n a t i o n a l i n s u r a n c e r e f o r m , b r o a d - b a s e d community
^ • ^ i n g , nobody c a n be d e n i e d . That w i l l save y o u 3 5 [ b i l l i o n
^ ^ M a r s D t o $50 b i l l i o n .
Number t w o , mandate a b a s i c p r i m a r y
^ ^ ^ v e n t i v e a c u t e c o m p r e h e n s i v e c a r e p a c k a g e t h a t h a s t o be p r o v i d e d
e i t h e r b y e m p l o y e r s o r by t h e g o v e r n m e n t w i t h c e n t r a l i s e d b i l l i n g t o
. ETX
�' MARYLAND DEMO DEBATE-03/01/92
^TX
PAGE 3-4
^^Vl
t h e growth
bureauc r a c y .
t o reduce
o f t h e paper h o s p i t a l ,
the health
care
Number t h r e e , g i v e r e a l i n c e n t i v e s f o r p e o p l e t o j o i n h e a l t h
c a r e g r o u p s so t h a t ( i t w o u l d ? ) s t o p t h e g o v e r n m e n t f r o m m i c r o managing t h e h e a l t h c a r e p r o c e s s .
Those t h r e e t h i n g s i f p r o p e r l y
done w i l l save b e t w e e n 80 [ b i l l i o n d o l l a r s ] and $120 b i l l i o n .
Then
you p l o w t h a t money back i n t o p r o v i d i n g u n i v e r s a l c o v e r a g e p a c k a g e
and i n p r o v i d i n g l o n g - t e r m c a r e f o r t h e e l d e r l y and t h e d i s a b l e d .
Who w i l l s t i l l have t o pay? P e o p l e who d o n ' t p r o v i d e any
c o v e r a g e a t a l l t o t h e i r e m p l o y e e s now w i l l have t o pay e i t h e r i n t o
a g o v e r n m e n t i n s u r a n c e p r o g r a m o r a p r i v a t e o n e b u t i t w i l l be a
much l o w e r premium t h a n now w o u l d be a v a i l a b l e t o them. And
s e c o n d l y , p e o p l e who w o u l d b u y i n t o t h e l o n g - t e r m c a r e p a c k a g e who
you d o n ' t h a v e a c c e s s t o a n y t h i n g now w o u l d have t o p a y a s m a l l
p e r c e n t a g e o f t h e i r income.
B u t you'd b e g i n w i t h c o s t c o n t r o l s .
CONTINUED ON PAGE 4-1
. ETX
�MARYLAND DEMO DEBATE-03/01/92
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PAGE 4-1
One f i n a l p o i n t , some o f t h e o l i g o p o l i s t i c h i g h c o s t i t e m s
head on l i k e d r u g s , m e d i c i n e ' s gone up t o t h r e e t h e r a t e o f
i n f l a t i o n , y o u ' r e j u s t g o i n g t o have t o s t o p A m e r i c a n d r u g c o m p a n i e s
f r o m c h a r g i n g A m e r i c a n s more t h a n t h e y c h a r g e p e o p l e o v e r s e a s f o r
d r u g s t h a t a r e made i n t h i s c o u n t r y .
MR. BECKEL:
Okay.
Anybody l i k e
t o jump i n ?
SEN. HARKIN:
I ' l l j u s t s a y on t h i s t h a t I have an e i g h t
point plan for n a t i o n a l health care.
B u t t h e one t h i n g t h a t Mr.
C l i n t o n d i d n ' t mention.
I f y o u want t o r e a l l y c o n t r o l c o s t s , y o u ' v e
got t o r e t h i n k h e a l t h c a r e i n A m e r i c a .
That h e a l t h c a r e i s n o t
s o m e t h i n g y o u g e t j u s t when y o u g e t s i c k , b u t h e a l t h c a r e i s
s o m e t h i n g y o u g e t t o keep y o u h e a l t h y i n t h e f i r s t p l a c e .
Once we do t h a t , and o n c e we f o c u s on p r e v e n t a t i v e h e a l t h
c a r e , we w i l l s a v e a l o t o f money.
I f we f u l l y f u n d t h i n g s l i k e
m a t e r n a l and c h i l d h e a l t h c a r e p r o g r a m s , w i t h p r o g r a m s , t h e
immunization programs.
C h i l d h o o d i m m u n i z a t i o n s , f o r example, t h e s e
a r e p r o g r a m s t h a t come under my c o m m i t t e e i n t h e S e n a t e .
Last year,
Bush d i d n ' t want t o f u l l y fund t h e c h i l d h o o d i m m u n i z a t i o n p r o g r a m .
W e l l , we c o u l d n ' t f u n d i t t h e n .
He s a i d i t c o s t t o o much.
I n D a l l a s , T e x a s , l a s t y e a r we had an o u t b r e a k o f m e a s l e s . I t
t y o u , t h e t a x p a y e r s , a b o u t $650,000 i n h o s p i t a l c o s t s f o r t h e s e
s t h a t g o t m e a s l e s , had t o go t o t h e h o s p i t a l .
F o r $9,000 we
c o u l d have immunized e v e r y k i d i n D a l l a s , Texas.
But Bush s a y s , n o , we c a n ' t a f f o r d t h a t .
T h a t ' s why I s a y
we've g o t t o f o c u s on p r e v e n t a t i v e h e a l t h c a r e and k e e p i n g p e o p l e
healthy i nthe f i r s t place.
T h a t ' s why l a s t y e a r I t o o k $235
m i l l i o n o u t o f George Bush's budget f o r a d m i n i s t r a t i v e c o s t s a n d
t r a n s f e r r e d i t i n t o the p r e v e n t a t i v e health care block grant for t h e
s t a t e s t o get t h a t p r e v e n t a t i v e h e a l t h care out t h e r e .
We s t a r t
d o i n g t h a t , we c a n c o n t r o l c o s t s .
S e c o n d l y , we've g o t t o c u t down on p a p e r w o r k .
Twenty f o u r
c e n t s o f e v e r y d o l l a r f o r h e a l t h c a r e goes f o r a d m i n i s t r a t i v e c o s t s .
Canada i t ' s o n l y e l e v e n c e n t s .
T h i r d , we've g o t t o c u t o u t t h e w a s t e .
Last year, I caught
M e d i c a r e p a y i n g $700 f o r a foam m a t t r e s s t h a t o n l y c o s t $29.
Let's
s t a r t g o i n g a f t e r some o f t h o s e and w e e d i n g t h o s e o u t .
MR. BECKEL:
Okay, G o v e r n o r .
MR. BROWN: The o n l y r e a l i t y t h a t I s e e i n t h i s w h o l e h e a l t h
care debate i s t h a t t h i s i s a b i g business.
I t ' s $800 b i l l i o n a
vear.
They g i v e $30 m i l l i o n e v e r y t w o y e a r s t o C o n g r e s s t o keep i t
way i t i s . F o r 25 y e a r s , t h e D e m o c r a t s h a v e s a i d on t h e i r
^ ^ W t f o r m we want h e a l t h c a r e .
H a r r y Truman s a i d i t back i n 1949.
.ETX
�MARYLAND DEMO DEBATE-03/01/92
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PAGE 4-2
I t d o e s n ' t happen.
I t d o e s n ' t happen
i c a l l o b b i e s , t h e i n s u r a n c e companies,
i s t o o much.
And t h a t ' s t h e p o i n t o f t h i s
failed.
And u n t i l y o u c h a l l e n g e t h a t , t h e
i s empty and m e a n i n g l e s s .
b e c a u s e t h e power o f t h e
and t h e e q u i p m e n t s a l e s m e n
governing e l i t e t h a t has
whole h e a l t h care debate
And i f y o u can c h a l l e n g e them, y e s , c o n t r o l t h e g r e e d w i t h a
s i n g l e payer.
P u t a l i d on c o s t s , and t h e n y o u ' r e i n a p o s i t i o n t o
c o v e r e v e r y s i n g l e A m e r i c a n l i k e t h e y do i n Canada. And t h e n y o u ' r e
i n a p o s i t i o n t o emphasize o c c u p a t i o n a l h e a l t h , e n v i r o n m e n t a l
h e a l t h , p r e v e n t i o n , and e n s u r e p r i v a t e c h o i c e o f a d i v e r s i t y o f
healing practices.
T h a t ' s t h e p l a n t h a t I s u p p o r t , b u t I know u n t i l we can b r e a k
t h e s t r a n g l e h o l d o f those c o r r u p t l o b b i e s t h a t l i v e o f f t h e thousand
d o l l a r d ' ^ n a t i o n s and t h e p o l i t i c a l a c t i o n c o m m i t t e e money, y o u ' l l
never g e t anywhere.
W e ' l l be t a l k i n g b o u t t h i s , a s s u m i n g we're
r u n n i n g a g a i n , i n a n o t h e r f o u r y e a r s , and a f t e r t h a t .
So, l e t ' s g e t t o t h e h e a r t .
I t ' s power, and we have t o
c h a l l e n g e t h a t power t o g e t t o a n y t h i n g good i n t h i s c o u n t r y .
MR. BECKEL:
I t ' s a l o n g c a m p a i g n as i t i s , g o v e r n o r .
a h e a d , S e n a t o r Tsongas.
«
k
MR. TSONGAS:
And a s y o u know, when I l e f t
Go
t h i s a r e a back i n
14, I had c a n c e r .
And I s u r v i v e d b e c a u s e o f t h e m e d i c a l c a r e
a i l a b l e i n t h i s country.
I c a r e v e r y d e e p l y t h a t what was
a v a i l a b l e f o r me s h o u l d be a v a i l a b l e f o r e v e r y o n e .
So when I g o t my g r o u p t o g e t h e r t o do a p l a n , i t had t w o
mandates.
One, i t ' s a r i g h t o f e v e r y A m e r i c a n , and t w o , d o n ' t
bankrupt the country while you're at i t .
And a f t e r f i v e m o n t h s , what we came up w i t h was t h e
e n d o r s e m e n t o f t h e i d e a o f managed c o m p e t i t i o n .
The same p l a c e t h a t
Time M a g a z i n e , t h e New Y o r k T i m e s , and B u s i n e s s Week have ended up.
I n w h i c h t h e g o v e r n m e n t mandates t h e c o v e r a g e , b u t t h e n uses t h e
p r i v a t e s e c t o r t o compete t o b r i n g down c o s t s .
Now, t h e r e a r e t w o c h o i c e s .
One, g o v e r n m e n t i s c o s t e f f i c i e n t
and c a n do t h i s e f f i c i e n t l y .
I f y o u b e l i e v e t h a t , we have
c o u n s e l i n g o u t s i d e f o r y o u . The o t h e r a p p r o a c h i s have t h e p r i v a t e
s e c t o r compete head on h e a d , s o t h a t y o u have an i n c e n t i v e t o g e t
t h e b e s t d o c t o r s , t h e b e s t h o s p i t a l s , t h e most e f f i c i e n t c a r e .
And we have t o do t h r e e t h i n g s on t h e g o v e r n m e n t s i d e . One,
c h a n g e m a l p r a c t i c e l a w s s o doct'ors do n o t p r a c t i c e d e f e n s i v e
medicine.
Two, c e n t r a l i z e r e p o r t i n g t o c u t down t h e b u r e a u c r a c y .
And t h r e e , a s Tom p o i n t e d o u t , p r e v e n t i v e c a r e .
I t ' s the c r i t i c a l
ponent.
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�MARYLAND DEMO DEBATE-03/01/92
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MR. BECKEL:
Okay.
PAGE 4-3
Governor C l i n t o n ,
y o u want t o r e s p o n d ?
GOV. CLINTON:
I j u t want t£h o r f i f t e e n s e c o n d s .
I think
w e ' r e a l l m o v i n g t o t h e same p l a c e on t h i s .
I wanted t o emphasise
one t h i n g t h a t S e n a t o r H a r k i n g and S e n a t o r Tsongas p o i n t e d o u t a b o u t
p r e v e n t i v e and p r i m a r y c a r e .
You must p r o v i d e a c c e s s t o t h o s e
s e r v i c e s where p e o p l e l i v e .
We have r a t i o n e d p r e v e n t i v e and p r i m a r y
care i n America, not expensive care.
We can a f f o r d f o r e v e r y b o d y t o
have t h e c a r e S e n a t o r Tsongas had i f we p u t h e a l t h c l i n i c s i n i n n e r
c i t i e s and r u r a l a r e a s , and more h e a l t h e d u c a t i o n and h e a l t h
s e r v i c e s i n s c h o o l s and i n work p l a c e s .
You've g o t t o t a k e i t p e o p l e
want t o s a v e money.
where t h e y l i v e
i f you r e a l l y
MR. BROWN: I t h i n k i f y o u t h i n k t h a t t h e
insurance
c o m p a n i e s a r e g o i n g t o somehow make t h i s e a s y , you a l s o need
c o u n s e l i ng. You've g o t t o t a k e — I d o n ' t b e l i e v e h e a l t h c a r e i s a
commodity.
I b e l i e v e i t ' s a r i g h t o f e v e r y A m e r i c a n and we have a
c o m m u n i t y t h a t c a r e s . We o u g h t t o a l l be i n t h e same b o a t , and
w e ' l l make s u r e t h a t t h a t h e a l t h a r e i s e x t e n d e d t o a l l o f u s . The
problem i s , t h e r e ' s p r o f i t e e r i n g , t h e r e ' s greed.
T h a t ' s what h a s t o
be c o n t r o l l e d , n o t t h e s e r v i c e .
't
MR. BECKEL: S e n a t o r H a r k i n , y o u want t o r e s p o n d
want c o u n s e l i n g , I assume, i n a l l o f t h i s ?
s i r . You
SEN. HARKIN: W e l l , c o u n s e l i n g , and e v e r y t h i n g , a l o t o f
l i t t l e q u i p s g o i n g o n . B u t anyway, you know, we have t o have some
d r a s t i c c h a n g e s i n t h e way we t h i n k a b o u t h e a l t h c a r e i n t h i s
country.
I m e n t i o n e d one, t h a t y o u have t o h a v e h e a l t h c a r e t o keep
you h e a l t h i n t h e f i r s t p l a c e .
S e c o n d l y , we have t o b r e a k o u t o f t h i s mold o f t h i n k i n g o f
t h i s feefor service.
I f we c o n t i n u e a f e e f o r s e r v i c e p r o g r a m i n
A m e r i c a , I'm s o r r y , y o u ' r e n o t g o i n g t o g e t away f r o m i t . And
t h a t ' s a g a i n t h e d i r e c t i o n t h a t Mr. Tsongas i s t a k i n g .
Going down
that fee for service.
I ' l l t e l l y o u t h i s , George Bush, t h e P r e s i d e n t o f t h e U n i t e d
States,
goes o u t t o E-fethesda Naval H o s p i t a l and g e t s g r e a t h e a l t h
care.
No one t h e r e w o r k s f e e f o r s e r v i c e , t h e y ' r e a l l s a l a r i e d , and
I say w h a t ' s good enough f o r George H e r b e r t Walker Bush i s good
enough f o r t h e w o r k i n g p e o p l e o f A m e r i c a .
question
MR. BECKEL:
for you.
Very q u i c k l y b o t h o f you,
then
I've got a
MR. TSONGAS: I have t o a g r e e .
B i l l C l i n t o n and I a r e
t o t a l l y i n agreement t h a t our p l a n which i s s i m i l a r i s n o t f e e f o r
rvice.
What we do i s , y o u h a v e an HMO w h i c h p r o v i d e s h e a l t h c a r e
| a group.
I t i s i n t h e i n t e r e s t o f t h a t HMO t o be c o s t
licient.
I ti s not feefor service.
«
. ETX
�MARYLAND DEMO DEBATE-03/01/92
. STX
MR. BECKEL:
OKay.
60 ahead.
PAQE 4-4
Do y o u want t o —
GOV. CLINTON: The o n l y o t h e r t h i n g I w o u l d s a y i s , i f y o u
l o o k a t t h e p r o d u c t i v i t y p r o g r a m s i n A m e r i c a , one o f t h e b i g g e s t
ones i s i n h e a l t h c a r e .
I t ' s n o t j u s t a s y s t e m o f f i n a n c e , i t ' s how
y o u r e o r g a n i s e t h e h e a l t h c a r e work p l a c e t o push down p r e v e n t i v e
and p r i m a r y c a r e t o make i t l e s s b u r e a u c r a t i c , and t h e r e a r e more
t h a n one ways t o do t h a t .
I s t u d i e d t h i s f o r a y e a r , s e t up a g o v e r n o r ' s t a s k f o r c e .
The a r g u m e n t s we're h a v i n g a r e n o t t h e r e a l a r g u m e n t s . You've g o t
t o c o v e r e v e r y b o d y , and y o u ' v e g o t t o have a good p r i m a r y p r e v e n t i v e
c a r e package.
Then t h e q u e s t i o n i s , how do y o u c o n t r o l c o s t s
CONTINUED ON PAGE 5-1
.ETX
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PAGE 5-1
c o n s t a n t l y r e o r g a n i z i n g t h e w o r k p l a c e and t a k i n g o u t t h e f e e - f o r service incentive?
I a g r e e w i t h S e n a t o r H a r k i n , b u t we can do i t i n
our p l a n .
M : BECKEL: G e n t l e m e n , l e t me ask y o u each a q u e s t i o n , and i f
R.
you c o u l d p l e a s e keep your answers a s s h o r t as p o s s i b l e .
To t r y t o
s t e m t h e h o r r o r , t h e g r o w i n g numbers o f AIDS v i c t i m s i n t h i s
c o u n t r y , t h e r e have been p r o p o s a l s , among them t o d i s t r i b u t e
freely
i n p u b l i c s c h o o l s condoms and t o g i v e t o d r u g a d d i c t s c l e a n n e e d l e s
on demand.
Do y o u a g r e e w i t h one o r b o t h o f t h o s e p r o p o s a l s ?
Anybody want t o t a k e i t f i r s t ?
I d o n ' t want t o t r y t o p i c k i t o u t .
(Laughter.)
GOV. CLINTON:
I ' l l do i t .
SEN. HARKIN:
W e l l , I ' l l t e l l y o u t h i s r i g h t now. I ' v e g o t
t w o d a u g h t e r s i n p u b l i c s c h o o l s — one d a u g h t e r i n h i g h s c h o o l and
one d a u g h t e r i n g r a d e s c h o o l — and I ' l l t e l l y o u t h i s r i g h t now. I
d o n ' t want some g o v e r n m e n t o f f i c i a l s t a n d i n g o u t s i d e t h e s c h o o l
h a n d i n g o u t condoms t o my d a u g h t e r s when t h e y g e t o u t o f s c h o o l ,
period — (applause.)
T h a t ' s s o m e t h i n g t h a t o u g h t t o be l e f t a t t h e
local level.
I f t h e l o c a l school board, local school d i s t r i c t
—
t h a t ' s up t o them.
B u t I d o n ' t t h i n k t h e f e d e r a l government ought
be m a n d a t i n g t h a t someone s t a n d o u t s i d e t h e s c h o o l h a n d i n g o u t
doms t o p e o p l e .
«
MR. BECKEL:
Governor C l i n t o n ?
GOV. CLINTON:
I d o n ' t t h i n k t h e f e d e r a l government s h o u l d be
m a n d a t i n g i t , b u t I l i v e i n a s t a t e where we have been on t h e
c u t t i n g edge o f p u t t i n g h e a l t h s e r v i c e s i n t h e s c h o o l s , a n t i - t e e n
pregnancy, anti-AIDS e f f o r t s .
And we l e t e v e r y s c h o o l d i s t r i c t make
the d e c i s i o n .
And i f t h e y d e c i d e , a f t e r c o n s u l t a t i o n w i t h c o m m u n i t y
and r e l i g i o u s l e a d e r s , t o d i s t r i b u t e condoms, we s u p p o r t them, and I
t h i n k we s h o u l d .
T h i s i s l i f e and d e a t h .
(Applause.)
This i s l i f e
and d e a t h .
L e t me a l s o s a y t h e r e a r e a l o t o f t h i n g s I d o n ' t know t h e
answer t o , and I d o n ' t know how I f e e l a b o u t t h e c l e a n n e e d l e s
issue.
But I t h i n k I f a v o r l i f e , b u t I d o n ' t know how I f e e l about
the proposal ( ? ) .
Now, t h e f i n a l t h i n g I want t o s a y i s , we have t w o e x c e l l e n t
r e p o r t s f r o m t h i s AIDS c o m m i s s i o n .
The P r e s i d e n t never m e n t i o n e d
AIDS u n t i l Magic J o h n s o n had t h e g u t s t o come f o r w a r d .
(Scattered
applause.)
We h a v e g o t t o i m p l e m e n t — we know what t o do. We know
how t o i m p r o v e t r e a t m e n t . We know we've g o t t o b r o a d e n t h e CDC
d e f i n i t i o n s t o e n c o u r a g e — i n c l u d e more women and IV d r u g u s e r s i n
t h e r e s e a r c h , on t r e a t m e n t . And l e t ' s j u s t i m p l e m e n t what we've g o t
go a f t e r i t and t a k e t h i s i s s u e o u t i n t h e open and t a l k a b o u t
Fand f i g h t i t .
.ETX
�MARYLAND DEMO DEBATE-03/01/92
. STX
MR. BECKEL:
All right,
PAGE 5-2
Governor Brown and t h e n
—
MR. BROWN: I wear t h i s r e d r i b b o n t o s i g n a l s o l i d a r i t y w i t h
t h e p e o p l e t h a t a r e d y i n g o f AIDS and t h e s u f f e r i n g o f t h e f a m i l i e s .
And I want e v e r y o n e i n t h e p r e s i d e n t i a l campaign t o make i t v e r y
c l e a r t h a t t h i s i s a scourge, a plague.
I t can devastate — i t i s
d e v a s t a t i n g t h e p e o p l e a f f e c t e d , b u t i t ' s g o i n g t o grow and grow
u n l e s s we t a k e e v e r y measure — p r e v e n t i o n , r e s e a r c h , c a r i n g f o r
t h o s e who a r e so a f f l i c t e d .
And y e a h , y o u g e t down t o t h e h a r d - c o r e i s s u e s , y o u know, l i k e
i t ' s s e x u a l l y t r a n s m i t t e d . Condoms can b l o c k t h a t .
I'm n o t s a y i n g
we s h o u l d s h o v e t h i s down t h e t h r o a t o f t h e l o c a l p e o p l e , b u t t h e
P r e s i d e n t — I h a v e n ' t h e a r d h i m s t a n d up and a d d r e s s t h e i s s u e .
S u r e , a b s t i n e n c e i s a b s o l u t e l y 100 p e r c e n t s a f e , b u t condoms o u t t o
be o u t t h e r e , t o o ; and s a f e n e e d l e s , y e s , c a n p r o m o t e d r u g use, b u t
i t a l s o can save l i v e s .
So l e t ' s t a l k a b o u t i t . L e t ' s n o t p u n i s h t h o s e l o c a l g r o u p s
who a r e w i l l i n g t o s t e p f o r w a r d and make t h e s e d e v i c e s a v a i l a b l e
t h a t w i l l save l i v e s .
And I d o n ' t even hear t h e P r e s i d e n t t a l k i n g
a b o u t i t b e c a u s e sex o r s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u want t o a p p e a l t o one
g r o u p o f t h e s o c i e t y t h a t j u s t w a n t s i t t o go away.
I t ' s not going
away, and t o n i g h t young c h i l d r e n — young c h i l d r e n a r e d y i n g b e c a u s e
hey're not g e t t i n g t h e l e a d e r s h i p o f our p o l i t i c i a n s .
MR. BECKEL:
S e n a t o r Tsongas, do y o u h a v e a r e s p o n s e ?
MR. TSONGAS: P r e s i d e n t Reagan made h i s l i v i n g by s p e a k i n g .
He n e v e r g o t t h e word AIDS o u t o f h i s mouth i n e i g h t y e a r s , and
America p a i d the p r i c e for t h a t .
George Bush i s j u s t m a r g i n a l l y
better.
A D e m o c r a t i c p r e s i d e n t h a s t o p u t AIDS a t t h e f r o n t , have
an AIDS c z a r and d e a l — I s u p p o r t b o t h .
I f the l o c a l communities
want t o do i t , t h e y have t o do i t .
L e t me r a i s e one o t h e r d i m e n s i o n o f t h i s i s s u e .
I spent t w o
y e a r s — I t h i n k : some o f y o u know — i n t h e Peace C o r p s i n E t h i o p i a .
A f r i c a i s b e i n g d e v a s t a t e d by AIDS; n o t j u s t t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s , b u t
t h e w h o l e c o n t i n e n t i s under t h r e a t .
So I ( ? ) need t o g e t a h a n d l e
on t h i s i s s u e and f i n d a c u r e and some way t o d e a l w i t h i t . I t ' s
not i m p o r t a n t t o the United S t a t e s , b u t t h e r e are
literally
c o u n t r i e s t h a t a r e f a c i n g g e n o c i d e b e c a u s e o f t h i s s c o u r g e t h a t we
h a v e t h e r e s p o n s i b i l i t y t o as w e l l .
The d i m e n s i o n goes f a r beyond
t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s , and I t h i n k t h e Reagan-Bush r e c o r d o f a v o i d a n c e
on t h i s issue? i s d e v a s t a t i n g .
(Applause.)
MR. BECKEL: Okay, l e t me move on t o a n o t h e r i s s u e .
Folks,
please.
We've g o t l i m i t e d t i m e .
L e t ' s move on t o t h e i s s u e o f
c i v i l r i g h t s and c i v i l l i b e r t i e s .
Do y o u h a v e a q u e s t i o n ?
Q
Yes. My name i s M a x i n e I s a a c s .
I'm a d o c t o r a l s t u d e n t
he S c h o o l o f P u b l i c A f f a i r s .
G o v e r n o r Brown, p l e a s e d e s c r i b e
•
.ETX
�MARYLAND DEMO DEBATE-03/01/92
. STX
us i n some d e t a i l t h e one p e r s o n a l
i f i c a n t l y i n f l u e n c e d your t h i n k i n g
c i v i l 1 i ber t i es.
PAGE 5-2
e x p e r i e n c e t h a t most
on t h e i s s u e s o f c i v i l
rights
M : EiROWN: B e i n g i n t h e m i d d l e o f t h e W a t t s r i o t when my
R.
f a t h e r was g o v e r n o r o f C a l i f o r n i a and g o i n g i n t o a c h u r c h i n V e n i c e ,
C a l i f o r n i a , and b e i n g screamed and y e l l e d a t i n a way t h a t I ' v e
n e v e r e x p e r i e n c e d , and s e e i n g t h e f r u s t r a t i o n , t h e r a g e , j u s t t h e
s u p p r e s s e d ( ? ) f u r y t h a t was coming o u t a t t h a t h i s t o r i c moment i n
C a l i f o r n i a , i n the l i f e of t h i s country.
And I saw t h e r e a r e a l i t y
t h a t I knew j u s t had t o be d e a l t w i t h .
MR. BECKEL:
Senator?
Anyone e l s e want t o jump i n h e r e ,
please'"'
M : TSONGAS: I l i v e d , as I s a i d e a r l i e r , f o r t w o y e a r s i n
R.
Ethiopia.
And i t was a v e r y e m o t i o n a l e x p e r i e n c e f o r me, and I
t h i n k a l o t o f y o u h a v e h e a r d me s a y i t was t h e b e s t t w o y e a r s o f my
life.
And when I was l e a v i n g E t h i o p i a , my s t u d e n t s had a p a r t y f o r
me. And d u r i n g t h e d i s c u s s i o n , we w e r e r e f e r r i n g t o an A m e r i c a n
Peace C o r p s v o l u n t e e r who i s b l a c k who had l e f t e a r l i e r .
And i n t h e
w a r m t h o f t h e moment, t h e s t u d e n t s a i d t o me t h a t I was t h e i r
f r i e n d , b u t he was t h e i r b r o t h e r .
And i t was t h e f i r s t t i m e t h a t I
had r e a l l y come t o g r i p s w i t h and been exposed t o t h e i d e a t h a t
t h e r e a r e d i v i s i o n s t h a t have t o be h e a l e d , t h a t y o u r e a l l y have t o
t ^ k e t h i s s e r i o u s l y , t h a t i f we're g o i n g t o be one n a t i o n h e a l e d ,
^ ^ H t e d , t h a t t h i s s e n s e o f s e p a r a t e n e s s h a s t o be d e s t r o y e d .
There
^^^e
t o be i d e n t i t i e s and be p r o u d o f i t , b u t I t h i n k t h e
a d m i n i s t r a t i o n t h a t we have now i s t r e a t i n g i t so c a v a l i e r l y .
You
have t o work a t h e a l i n g .
I t h a s t o be s o m e t h i n g y o u t a k e s e r i o u s l y .
I n even t h e most p o s i t i v e s i t u a t i o n s , t h e r e ' s s t i l l t h i s q u e s t i o n :
Are we n o t b r o t h e r s and s i s t e r s ?
And an A m e r i c a n p r e s i d e n t h a s a n
enormous r e s p o n s i b i l i t y t o b r i n g t h i s h e a l i n g t o g e t h e r .
MR. BECKEL:
Governor?
GOV. CLINTON: When I was a s m a l l b o y , I l i v e d w i t h my
g r a n d p a r e n t s i n a l i t t l e c o m m u n i t y i n s o u t h w e s t A r k a n s a s w h i c h had a
v e r y l a r g e b l a c k p o p u l a t i o n . And my g r a n d f a t h e r had a s t o r e i n t h e
p r e d o m i n a n t l y b l a c k area o f town.
So I l e a r n e d as a c h i l d t h a t I
made f r i e n d s w i t h c h i l d r e n who c o u l d n ' t go t o s c h o o l w i t h me. I
made f r i e n d s w i t h c h i l d r e n who l i v e d i n t h e p a r t o f town where t h e i r
s t r e e t s w e r e n ' t paved and t h e y d i d n ' t have i n d o o r t o i l e t s .
And i t
made a p r o f o u n d i m p r e s s i o n on me j u s t b e c a u s e i t was a p a r t o f my
life.
And I had a g r a n d f a t h e r , t h a n k God, who, even t h o u g h he o n l y
had a f o u r t h - g r a d e e d u c a t i o n , t a u g h t me t h a t i t was wrong.
•
Many y e a r s l a t e r , when I was 17, I came h e r e t o C o l l e g e P a r k
t o t h e A m e r i c a n L e g i o n Boys N a t i o n p r o g r a m .
T h e r e were f o u r b l a c k s
o f t h e 100 b o y s i n t h i s mock S e n a t e p r o g r a m .
They and t w o g u y s f r o m
L o u i s i a n a and I were t h e o n l y o n e s who v o t e d f o r e v e r y c i v i l r i g h t s
L t h a t we h a d . One o f t h e g u y s f r o m L o u i s i a n a went t o Georgetown
i me. The o t h e r i s a s o c i a l l y a c t i v e J e s u i t p r i e s t t o d a y . I t
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my c h i l d h o o d and my g r a n d p a r e n t s and my p e r s o n a l a c q u a i n t a n c e
:m e a r l y l i f e w i t h b l a c k A m e r i c a n s t h a t gave me my deep h a t r e d o f
'
F a c i s m and commitment t o e q u a l r i g h t s f o r a l l p e o p l e .
MP. BECKEL:
Senator
Harkin.
SEN. HARKIN:
Two i n c i d e n t s , one d o m e s t i c , one f o r e i g n ;
d o m e s t i c when I went t o Iowa S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y and f o u n d t h a t b l a c k
s t u d e n t s c o u l d n ' t f i n d h o u s i n g o f f - c a m p u s , so we formed a g r o u p
c a l l e d t h e S t u d e n t C o m m i t t e e on R a c i a l E q u a l i t y t o b r e a k down t h e
h o u s i n g b a r r i e r s a g a i n s t b l a c k s t u d e n t s i n Ames, Iowa, a t Iowa S t a t e
University.
T h a t was my f i r s t e x p o s u r e t o what I c a l l t h e imbedded
r a c i s m a c c o r d i n g t o t h e l a w s t h a t we had a t t h e t i m e i n t h e h o u s i n g
codes.
The s e c o n d was when I was a s t a f f a i d e i n t h e Congress and I
t r a v e l e d t o V i e t n a m and u n c o v e r e d s o m e t h i n g w h i c h i s c a l l e d t h e
t i g e r c a g e s i n V i e t n a m i n 1970 and f o u n d t h a t o u r government was
p a y i n g and p r o v i d i n g f o r t h e s e t i g e r c a g e s t o p u t p o l i t i c a l
p r i s o n e r s i n on an i s l a n d o f f t h e c o a s t o f V i e t n a m ; h u n d r e d s o f men,
women, c h i l d r e n s t u c k i n t h e s e cages i n unhuman c o n d i t i o n s , b e i n g
tortured daily.
And when I saw t h a t , I t h o u g h t , what i s o u r
government s t a n d i n g f o r ?
We o u g h t t o s t a n d f o r human r i g h t s and
c i v i l l i b e r t i e s a l l o v e r t h e w o r l d , and h e r e we were b e h i n d t h e
t i g e r cages.
•
in
When we l e f t V i e t n a m , I exposed t h e t i g e r
i n Congress.
I n f a c t , one c o n g r e s s m a n s a i d
Congress.
CONTINUED ON PAGE 6-1
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c a g e s and l o s t my
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PAGE 6-1
I am.
But I was w i l l i n g t o do t h a t b e c a u s e I f e l t t h a t I had a d u t y
t o t h o s e 5 0 0 human b e i n g s cramped i n t h o s e t i g e r c a g e s .
And t h a t ' s
what l e d me, i n 1975 as a freshman c o n g r e s s m a n , t o i n t r o d u c e t h e
f i r s t human r i g h t s amendment passed by t h e C o n g r e s s , t o c o n d i t i o n
our f o r e i g n a i d on t h e o b s e r v a n c e o f human r i g h t s a r o u n d t h e w o r l d .
So I ' v e g o t a l o n g h i s t o r y on t h a t , and t h a t i n c i d e n t w i t h t h e t i g e r
c ages h a s a. f f ec t ed me ver y, ver y deep 1 y .
GOV. CLINTON:
MR. BECKEL:
GOV. CLINTON:
Could
I say something
on b e h a l f o f a l l o f u s ?
Sure.
You've j u s t h e a r d
something
to —
MR.
: Mr. B e c k e l , c o u l d I s a y s o m e t h i n g f i r s t ' " ' T h e r e i s
a p o l i t i c a l p r i s o n e r i n t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s , and t h a t ' s Lyndon
LaRouche.
I w o u l d j u s t l i k e t o ask t h e q u e s t i o n , w i l l t h e p a n e l
here —
M ' E<ECKEL: You know — hey, f r i e n d , I am going t o g i v e you
R.
about one second t o get away from t h a t s o I c a n get back t o t h i s
w.
I t ' s n o t y o u r show, i t ' s t h e i r s . You a r e c a u s i n g a
Caption.
And, i f y o u c o n t i n u e t h i s d i s r u p t i o n , t h e p o l i c e
•
i c e r w i l l ask y o u t o l e a v e t h e b u i l d i n g .
And, i f y o u f a i l t o
leave, the o f f i c e r w i l l a r r e s t you.
Q
( O f f mike) —
MR. BECKEL:
(App1ause.)
George Bush
—
Would y o u p l e a s e s h u t up!? Thank y o u .
MR. TSONGAS: Bob, c a n we e s t a b l i s h g r o u n d r u l e s h e r e ? You
a r e n o t s u p p o s e d t o g e t more a p p l a u s e t h a n we a r e .
(Laughter.)
MR. BECKEL:
You d i d p r e t t y w e l l
on l o l l i p o p s .
Go ahead.
GOV. CLINTON:
I j u s t want t o make a p o i n t h e r e on b e h a l f o f
a l l these people.
I j u s t h e a r d t h r e e moving s t o r i e s , n o t a l l o f
which I ever heard b e f o r e , from t h e s e o t h e r t h r e e p e o p l e .
Now, l a s t
week P a t Buchanan went t o t h e S o u t h and v i s i t e d a C o n f e d e r a t e
c e m e t e r y and w o u l d n o t walk: a c r o s s t h e s t r e e t t o v i s i t t h e b l a c k
cemetery across t h e s t r e e t .
He made a v e r y p o i n t e d message o f i t .
And George Bush h a s n o t c a l l e d i t on h i m y e t b e c a u s e he w a n t s t o
p l a y t h e r a c e c a r d a g a i n s t u s , and I'm t e l l i n g y o u t h e D e m o c r a t s a r e
n o t g o i n g t o l e t h i m do i t . We a r e g o i n g up o r down t o g e t h e r . And
I would —
(Applause.
Cheers.)
MR. BECKEL: F o l k s . F o l k s , I c a n u n d e r s t a n d your a p p l a u s e ,
t i c u l a r l y on t h a t answer.
I ' v e g o t one f a s t f o l l o w - u p .
A l lof
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PAGE 6-2
t
have c h a l l e n g e d t h e W i l l i e N o r t o n ad o f 1983 as t r y i n g t o d i v i d e
ck a g a i n s t w h i t e i n t h i s c o u n t r y f o r p u r p o s e s o f t h e e l e c t i o n ,
o each o f y o u , o r do any o f you, b e l i e v e t h a t t h e R e p u b l i c a n P a r t y
i s pursuing purely r a c i s t acts — r a c i s t s acts t o elect presidents?
SEN. HARKIN:
MR. BECKEL:
I would
—
I s t h e Republican
Party pursuing
racist
acts?
SEN. HARKIN: Not t h e p a r t y i t s e l f , b u t l e a d e r s i n t h e p a r t y
are.
I b e l i e v e t h a t George Bush h a s t a k e n t h e p a r t y o f Abraham
L i n c o l n and t u r n e d i t i n t o t h e p a r t y o f D a v i d Duke.
And he's
g e t t i n g t h e a s s i s t a n c e o f P a t Buchanan t o do i t .
(Applause.)
Look
a t o u r p o l i c y on H a i t i a n r e f u g e e s r i g h t now. H e r e ' s George Bush
t e l l i n g t h e B r i t i s h t h a t t h e y s h o u l d n ' t t a k e t h e V i e t n a m e s e back
from Hong Kong back t o V i e t n a m .
And y e t l o o k what h e ' s d o i n g t o t h e
H a i t i a n refugees.
I t a k e i t as a r a c i s t a c t , and i t ' s a b l i g h t on
our m o r a l c o n s c i e n c e .
(Applause.)
MR. BECKEL:
Jerry?
MR. BROWN: I t ' s n o t o n l y — t h e r a c i a l a d s , t h a t ' s one t h i n g ,
t h e W i l l i e H o r t o n a d . B u t t h e s o r r y , h a r d t r u t h i s t h a t e v e r y year
blacks i n t h i s country, along w i t h other people close t o t h e
economic p o v e r t y l i n e , a r e g o i n g down. We a r e e x i l i n g t e n s o f
l i o n s o f people i n t h i s country.
And, y e a h , r a c i s m i s i n t h e r e ;
^ ^ ^ q u e s t i o n about i t .
But t h e r e i s a d e l i b e r a t e e f f o r t every year
^ ^ ^ i n c r e a s e t h e ranks o f t h e impoverished, which i n e v i t a b l y leads t o
c r i m e , w h i c h l e a d s t o f e a r , w h i c h l e a d s t o t h e demands t o e r o d e
c i v i l l i b e r t i e s , more p o l i c e , more i n v a s i o n , more w i r e t a p p i n g and
t h e w h o l e change i n t h e c h a r a c t e r o f o u r A m e r i c a n s o c i e t y .
And, u n f o r t u n a t e l y , I have t o say t h a t t h e i n c u m b e n t p a r t y ,
b o t h p a r t i e s , h a v e n o t y e t s t o o d up t o t h e p l a t e and s a i d , "Wait a
m i n u t e h e r e , our c o u n t r y i s about . j u s t i c e , about a l l p e o p l e b e i n g
c r e a t e d e q u a l and h a v i n g t h e means t o r e a l i s e t h a t . "
And i f e v e r y
y e a r f o r a decade p e o p l e have been s l i p p i n g back — n o t by t h e
t h o u s a n d s b u t by t h e m i l l i o n s — t h e r e i s s o m e t h i n g wrong w i t h t h e
w h o l e p o l i t i c a l c u l t u r e and c l i m a t e . And t h a t ' s t h e b a s i s o f my
c r i t i q u e o f w h a t ' s wrong w i t h p o l i t i c s .
and
on.
MR. BECKEL: Okay. A l l r i g h t .
Can I a s k b o t h S e n a t o r Tsongas
G o v e r n o r C l i n t o n t o r e s p o n d t o t h a t ? Then we're g o i n g t o move
MR. TSONGAS: Even my 1 0 - y e a r - o l d d a u g h t e r c a n t e l l y o u t h a t
George Bush and t h e R e p u b l i c a n s h a v e o n e s t r a t e g y : d i v i d e and r u l e .
They l o o k a t t h e c i t i e s and t h e y l o o k a t m i n o r i t i e s , and t h e y s a y ,
"Not o u r p e o p l e .
To h e l l w i t h them.
We a r e g o i n g t o go a f t e r t h e
s u b u r b s and o t h e r a r e a s . "
I t ' s a very c l e a r approach:
divide i t ,
t more t h a n h a l f — y o u ' r e t h e p r e s i d e n t .
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RAGE 6-3
And t h a t ' s why I t h i n k what we o f f e r i s s o m e t h i n g d i f f e r e n t ,
i.ling.
Healing!
T h i s c o u n t r y i s d e s p e r a t e l y i n need o f t h a t , and
w e ' r e g o i n g t o g i v e i t t o them.
MR. BECKEL:
MR. TSONGAS:
MR. BECKEL:
Do y o u b e l i e v e t h o u g h i t i s —
I s u r e do.
I s u r e do.
Gove r nor C l i n t o n .
GOV. CLINTON: Leb me g i v e y o u one e x a m p l e .
Look a t t h e
speech t h a t V i c e P r e s i d e n t Q u a y l e made i n New Y o r k , and l o o k what
G o v e r n o r Cuomo s a i d a b o u t i t and o t h e r s .
He goes up t h e r e and t a l k s
about w e l f a r e r e f o r m .
T h a t ' s s o m e t h i n g t h a t ' s v e r y c l o s e t o my
heart.
I r e a l l y — y o u know, i t o u g h t t o be an a c t o f l i b e r a t i o n i n
our c o u n t r y f o r somebody who's on p u b l i c a s s i s t a n c e who h a t e s i t t o
g e t e d u c a t i o n and t r a i n i n g and h e l p f o r t h e i r k i d s and t o move i n t o
t h e work p l a c e .
Or f o r a l l t h e w o r k i n g p e o p l e who a r e poor t o g e t
an e a r n e d income t a x c r e d i t t o l i f t t h e m s e l v e s o u t o f p o v e r t y . So
what does Bush s a y ?
"I'm g o i n g t o l e t t h e s t a t e s have more
flexibility.
And Q u a y l e goes up t h e r e and makes some speech a b o u t
it.
What h a v e t h e y r e a l l y done' ' You l o o k a t i t — e v e r y s t a t e t h a t
i s w o r k i n g t o l i b e r a t e poor p e o p l e f r o m w e l f a r e and h a s been
s u c c e s s f u l a t i t h a s had t h e i r g r a n t s from t h e f e d e r a l government
c u t back, b e c a u s e t h e s e p e o p l e d o n ' t want t o do a n y t h i n g about p e o p l e
w e l f a r e ; t h e y want a p o l i t i c a l i s s u e i n t h e f a l l .
7
k
on
MR. BECKEL: Okay, Now we move o n .
the environment.
Yes, ma' am'
The n e x t
q u e s t i o n w i l l be
Q
Good e v e n i n g .
I am Vanessa Br addoc k (. ph > f r o m t h e S c h o o l
of P u b l i c A f f a i r s .
My q u e s t i o n i s on t h e e n v i r o n m e n t .
Sometimes
t h e r e i s a c o n f l i c t between an e n d a n g e r e d s p e c i e s , such as t h e
N o r t h e r n s p o t t e d o w l , and j o b s .
As p r e s i d e n t , how w o u l d r e s o l v e
these c o n f l i c t s ?
And, s p e c i f i c a l l y , do y o u t h i n k t h e Endangered
S p e c i e s A c t s h o u l d be r e l a x e d i n f a v o r o f jobs'? S e n a t o r H a r k i n ?
SEN. HARKIN: No, I do n o t b e l i e v e i t s h o u l d be r e l a x e d .
We
have t h e p r o v i s i o n s i n t h e l a w t h a t w o u l d p r o v i d e f o r a b a l a n c e f o r
i n t e r e s t s , t o p r o t e c t t h e e n v i r o n m e n t , t o p r o t e c t endangered
species, t o p r o t e c t jobs.
I t h i n k i t i s s h o r t - s i g h t e d t o say t h a t
somehow we l o s e j o b s i f we p r o t e c t t h e e n v i r o n m e n t .
That's not
true.
Not t r u e a t a l l . We h a v e t o f i n d d i f f e r e n t ways f o r
But we c a n ' t — we j u s t c a n ' t p e r m i t t h e
p r o v i d i ng wor k f o r p e o p l e ,
en v i r on men t t o be d e g r a d e d .
And, c>n t h e E n d a n g e r e d S p e c i e s A c t , t h e r e i s a p r o v i s i o n i n
the law t h a t a l l o w s t h i s s o r t o f p u l l i n g t o g e t h e r , t h i s s o - c a l l e d
"God Squad" a s t h e y c a l l i t , t o make t h e s e d e c i s i o n s t o b a l a n c e
these i n t e r e s t s .
•
On a b r o a d e r c o n t e x t , t h o u g h , on t h e e n v i r o n m e n t j o b s , when
. s a y t h a t we have t o move ahead i n t h i s c o u n t r y t o w a r d s what I
1
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1 sustainability.
And a s p r e s i d e n t I w o u l d be p r o m o t i n g
/cling.
And t h a t p r o m o t e s j o b s . T h e r e a r e more p e o p l e now
•
w o r k i n g r e c y c l i n g a l u m i n u m cans t h a n t h e r e a r e w o r k i n g making
aluminum cans.
So i t c l e a n s up t h e e n v i r o n m e n t .
Use more n a t u r a l
gas.
Q u i t i m p o r t i n g s o much o i l i n t o t h i s c o u n t r y .
L e t ' s have
energy e f f i c i e n c y .
And l e t ' s have r e n e w a b l e e n e r g y s o u r c e s i n t h i s
country.
And, a g a i n , t h a t ' s one p l a c e where I and o t h e r s have d i s a g r e e d
w i t h S e n a t o r T s o n g a s , who w a n t s t o b u i l d more n u c l e a r power p l a n t s .
I do n o t b e l i e v e we need t o b u i l d more n u c l e a r power p l a n t s . And,
as p r e s i d e n t , I w o u l d n o t b u i l d more n u c l e a r power p l a n t s .
I would
p u t t h i s c o u n t r y on a p a t h o f r e n e w a b l e e n e r g y — e n e r g y e f f i c i e n c y
and r e c y c l i n g
t o p r o d u c e t h e k i n d o f e n e r g y t h a t we need f o r t h e
future.
MR. BECKEL:
you
W e l l , i t ' s open.
So, s h o o t .
MR. BROWN: I'm w a i t i n g f o r Mr. Tsongas.
have something t o say t o t h a t .
I'm used t o g o i n g
MR. TSONGAS:
m somewhat a t a d i s a d v a n t a g e .
i n order.
(Laughter
(Laughter.)
I know
Sc I
L e t me s a y I ' v e had a l o t o f e x p e r i e n c e w i t h t h e i s s u e t h a t
raise.
As y o u know, I c a r r i e d t h e A l a s k a L a n d s B i l l t h r o u g h t h e
ate.
I t was t h e c o n s e r v a t i o n v o t e o f t h e c e n t u r y .
And t h a t ' s
t o f t h e r e a s o n why t h e e n v i r o n m e n t a l c o m m u n i t y i n M a r y l a n d h a s
•
e n d o r s e d me. I am v e r y p r o u d o f t h a t .
We had m i n i n g i n t e r e s t s , we
had t i m b e r i n t e r e s t s , we had o i l i n t e r e s t s , we had h u n t i n g
i n t e r e s t s , we had f i s h i n g i n t e r e s t s and t h e e n v i r o n m e n t .
I t was a
bloodbath.
B u t we ended up w i t h t h e b i l l t h a t was r e a s o n a b l e , a n d
now e v e r y b o d y , e x c e p t f o r a few p e o p l e i n t h e o i l i n d u s t r y — a r e
happy w i t h i t .
I had t h e same i s s u e i n Cape Cod -—• t h i s i s a f t e r I l e f t t h e
S e n a t e — when y o u had d e v e l o p e r s and t h o s e who wanted t o p r e s e r v e
Cape Cod who w e r e i n t h i s b a t t l e , v e r y much l i k e t h e bay h e r e . I t ' s
g o i n g t o h a v e t o be d e a l t w i t h .
And what happened was we c a l l e d f o r
a m o r a t o r i u m on c o n s t r u c t i o n t o get t h e a t t e n t i o n o f t h e d e v e l o p e r s .
And we ended up w i t h t h e Cape Cod P l a n n i n g C o m m i s s i o n .
So now
t h e r e ' s some r a t i o n a l i t y i n t h e p l a n n i n g .
I w o u l d n o t u n d e r c u t t h e Endangered S p e c i e s A c t . T h i s e a r t h
a guardianship.
I t ' s n o t j u s t t o d a y and t o m o r r o w . I t ' s h e r e
forever.
And o u r g e n e r a t i o n h a s t h e r e s p o n s i b i l i t y t o keep i t i n
t ac t .
1 3
MR."BECKEL:
Go ahead, G o v e r n o r .
MR. BROWN: The e n v i r o n m e n t and j o b s , f a r f r o m b e i n g
p m p a t i b l e — t h e y go t o g e t h e r . We a r e i n e x t r i c a b l y l i n k e d t o
re.
We a r e a p a r t o f n a t u r e and we r e s p e c t i t and we r e v e r e n c e
. ETX
�MARYLAND DEMO DEBATE-03/01/32
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PAGE 6-5
«
and we s u r v i v e . S u r e , p r o t e c t and p r e s e r v e t h e Endangered
c i e s A c t . B u t when t h e s e b a t t l e s come up t o , f o r example phase
n u c l e a r power, t h a t i n s p i r e s t r e m e n d o u s economic o p p o s i t i o n .
When I s t o p p e d t h e f i r s t n u c l e a r power p l a n t i n C a l i f o r n i a — I
mean, t h e y s c r e a m e d , t h e y y e l l e d , t h e y s a i d we w e r e g o i n g t o have a
" B r o w n - o u t " — t h a t ' s t h e name t h e y gave f o r t h e l i g h t s when t h e y
w e r e supposed t o go o u t .
Well, they d i d n ' t .
They d i d n ' t .
C a l i f o r n i a now g e n e r a t e s enough e l e c t r i c i t y f o r f o u r m i l l i o n p e o p l e
f r o m s o l a r , f r o m b i o - m a s s , f r o m w i n d , and f r o m g e o t h e r m a l .
The
p o s s i b i l i t i e s are there.
But u n l e s s y o u a r e p r e p a r e d t o s t a n d up t o v e r y p o w e r f u l
i n t e r e s t s , n o t h i n g i s g o i n g t o happen.
This planet i s being turned
into a stinking junkyard.
P r o f i t and g r e e d a r e d e s t r o y i n g t h e v e r y
basis of l i f e .
And t o s t a n d up t o t h a t t a k e s f i g h t i n g t h e p o l i t i c s
and b u s i n e s s a s u s u a l .
I t t a k e s c o m m i t t i n g t o phase o u t n u c l e a r
power, c o m m i t t i n g t o e n e r g y e f f i c i e n c y , and r e a l l y i n v e s t i n g i n t h e
r e n e w a b l e s t h a t w i l l s u s t a i n u s and p r o v i d e t h e model f o r a l l t h e s e
other c o u n t r i e s i n t h e w o r l d , l i k e China, t h a t w i l l devastate
e v e r y t h i n g t h a t we a r e d o i n g u n l e s s t h e y p i c k up on c l e a n , c h e a p e r
t e c h n o l o g i e s t h a t a r e invented i n t h e developed w o r l d .
That i s t h e
c h a l l e n g e t h a t i s economic and i t i s e n v i r o n m e n t a l and i t ' s
survi val.
n
MR. BECKEL: G o v e r n o r C l i n t o n , i f y o u h a v e a r e s p o n s e , and
I have a q u e s t i o n f o r t h e p a n e l .
Please.
GOV. CLINTON: V e r y b r i e f l y , t h e W a s h i n g t o n i s s u e on t h e
s p o t t e d o w l i s more i n v o l v e d t h a n t h a t .
Washington has o v e r c u t .
CONTINUED ON PAGE 7-1
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PAGE 7-1
y've c u t more t r e e s t h a n t h e y ' v e h a r v e s t e d f o r s e v e r a l y e a r s . A
l o t o f t h e problem i s w i t h o l d growth f o r e s t s , which c o n t a i n t r e e s
w h i c h may be v e r y c r i t i c a l t o o u r f u t u r e m e d i c a l r e s e a r c h .
The G o v e r n o r o f W a s h i n g t o n , B o o t h G a r d n e r , h a s l a i d o u t a v e r y
good t r a n s i t i o n a l economic p l a n w h i c h I t h i n k o u g h t t o be embraced
and s u p p o r t e d by t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s g o v e r n m e n t .
I do n o t b e l i e v e t h e Endangered S p e c i e s A c t s h o u l d be
repealed.
I t h i n k t h e d e c i s i o n s ought t o be made under i t based on
s c i e n c e and n o t on p o l i t i c s .
And I t h i n k we o u g h t t o s t a y w i t h i t .
T h a t i s one e x a m p l e o f t h e b i g i s s u e . One o f t h e b i g
q u e s t i o n s we h a v e t o r e s o l v e i n t h i s e l e c t i o n i s w h e t h e r we r e a l l y
b e l i e v e a s t h e V i c e P r e s i d e n t ' s C o u n c i l on C o m p e t i t i v e n e s s s a y s ,
t h a t e n v i r o n m e n t a l p r o t e c t i o n and economic g r o w t h a r e i n c o m p a t i b l e .
I b e l i e v e t h e y a r e c r i t i c a l l y c o m p a t i b l e and must go hand i n hand.
L e t me j u s t g i v e y o u one s p e c i f i c e x a m p l e .
As we go down f r o m
a d e f e n s e t o a d o m e s t i c economy a s we r e d u c e t h e D e f e n s e b u d g e t , how
a r e we g o i n g t o c r e a t e j o b s f o r a l l t h o s e s c i e n t i s t s , e n g i n e e r s and
f a c t o r y workers"'
One t h i n g we're g o i n g t o do i s p u t more money i n t o
e n v i r o n m e n t a l r e s e a r c h , e n v i r o n m e n t a l c l e a n - u p , more r e c y c l i n g ,
w a s t e r e d u c t i o n , a l l t h e s e e n v i r o n m e n t a l t h i n g s c a n be a g r e a t
fcrce o f e c o n o m i c s t r e n g t h t o u s i f we h o l d f a s t t o n a t i o n a l
Plndards and d o n ' t p u t s t a t e s and r e g i o n s p i t t e d a g a i n s t one
other.
f
SEN. HARKIN:
Mr. C l i n t o n , t h a t was a v e r y n i c e f l o w e r y
l i t t l e s p e e c h , b u t we have t o s t a r t r e a d i n g t h e r e c o r d s and n o t
r e a d i n g o u r l i p s , my f r i e n d s .
The f a c t i s t h a t A r k a n s a s has been
rated last i n environmental p o l i c y .
Newsweek m a g a z i n e , j u s t a l i t t l e o v e r a month ago s a i d t h a t
t h e E n v i r o n m e n t a l P r o t e c t i o n Agency i n A r k a n s a s was a j o k e , q u o t e , a
joke.
And s a i d i t was l o a d e d w i t h r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s o f t h e b i g g e s t
p o l l u t e r s i n t h e s t a t e o f Arkansas.
GOV. CLINTON;
Do I g e t t o answer"'
SEN. HARKIN: So now, a g a i n , y o u know, we c a n a l l have t h e s e
n i c e f l o w e r y speeches, b u t don't read our l i p s , read our r e c o r d .
T h a t ' s what I a s k y o u do t o .
MR. BECKEL:
Okay.
Go ahead, G o v e r n o r
Clinton.
GOV, CLINTON: W e l l , read, t h e r e s u l t s .
There a r e four s t a t e s
i n t h i s c o u n t r y i n c o m p l i a n c e w i t h t h e C l e a n A i r A c t . One i s
Arkansas.
T h e r e w e r e t h r e e s t a t e s who c o m p l i e d w i t h t h e Community
e D r i n k i n g Water A c t e a r l y .
One was A r k a n s a s .
T h e r e was o n e
t e t h a t was f i r s t r e c o g n i z e d by t h e EPA u n d e r C a r t e r ' s
•
ETX
�MARYLAND DEMO DEBATE-03/01/92
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PAGE 7-2
i n i s t r a t i o n when I was Governor
[•gram; A r k a n s a s .
t o r u n i t s own h a z a r d o u s
waste
We have had c l e a n e r w a t e r , c l e a n e r a i r , t o u g h e r e n f o r c e m e n t
u n d e r rn y g o v e r n o r s h i p . L o o k a t t h e r e c o r d .
I d o n ' t know who t h a t was who w r o t e i t i n Newsweek and I c a n ' t
d e f e n d t h e i s s u e . I ' l l t e l l y o u what.
I d i d pass a l a w t o r e d u c e
the
i n f l u e n c e o f t h e p e o p l e who p o l l u t e t h e e n v i r o n m e n t on t h e
P o l l u t i o n C o n t r o l Commission.
That was passed 20 y e a r s ago. And
now, n o n - p o l l u t e r s have a m a j o r i t y on t h a t Commission f o r t h e f i r s t
time because o f a law T passed.
So,
look a t t h e record, not t h e r h e t o r i c .
MR. BECKEL:
MR. BROWN:
CApplause.)
Folks, please.
Ten s e c o n d ,
MR. BECKEL:
10 s e c o n d s .
All right.
MP. BROWN: Okay. He t a l k e d a b o u t t h e r e c o r d .
"Clinton
T r u m p e t s E n v i r o n m e n t a l i s m a s A r k a n s a s R a t i n g s H i t Sour N o t e s " ;
" B r e a k s H e l p C o r p o r a t e P o l l u t e r s " ; and " C l i n t o n D e f e n d s C l e a r c u t t i n g , " t h e v e r y way o f l o g g i n g w h i c h i s g o i n g t o k i l l t h e s p o t t e d
GOV. CLINTON:
MR. BROWN:
Here.
GOV. CLINTON:
in
A r e y o u g o i n g t o l e t me —
L e t me g i v e y o u some d o c u m e n t a r y
Wait.
evidence.
You've g o t t o l e t me answer.
MR. BECKEL: Yes, y o u c a n . Then, S e n a t o r Tsongas, y o u c a n g e t
i f you l i k e .
You a l l answered t h e q u e s t i o n f o r me, p l e a s e .
GOV. CLINTON: T h i s i s an e x a m p l e o f s o r t o f p o l i t i c a l
chicanery.
I came o u t f o r a p l a n t o d r a m a t i c a l l y r e d u c e c l e a r c u t t i n g i n o u r n a t i o n a l f o r e s t s — s o m e t h i n g t h a t I had no c o n t r o l
o v e r ; i t was a l l f e d e r a l — b e f o r e any member o f C o n g r e s s i n my
s t a t e e v e r opened h i s mouth.
I s a i d we h a v e t o r e d u c e c1 e a r - c u t t i n g .
What t h i s means i s
t h a t I e n d o r s e d t h e b e s t p l a n we c o u l d g e t a t t h e t i m e , w h i c h l e f t
some c 1 e a r - c u t t i n g i n , b u t d r a s t i c a l l y r e d u c e d i t by more t h a n 60
percent.
Now t h a t
h e a d l i n e doesn't t e l l
MR. BECKEL:
^ ^ j m i e t h i ng?
that
.ETX
Okay.
you t h a t ,
S e n a t o r Tsongas,
GOV. CLINTON: Wait a m i n u t e .
I gave an i n v e s t m e n t t a x c r e d i t
does i t .
d i d y o u want
t o say
Whoa. T h i s r e f e r s t o t h e f a c t
t o o u r t i m b e r c o m p a n i e s and o u r
�MARYLAND DEMO DEBATE-03/01/92
. STX
er p r o d u c e r s t o r e i n v e s t i n o u r s t a t e , w h i c h i s why we c r e a t e d
s a t 10 t i m e s t h e n a t i o n a l a v e r a g e i n t h e m a n u f a c t u r i n g s e c t o r i n
h ISSO's. And what i t d o e s n ' t s a y i s t h e s e p o l l u t e r s a r e n o t
e m i t t i n g d i o x i n i n t o t h e water stream i n Arkansas a t l e s s than oneh a l f t h e r a t e p r o v i d e d f o r by t h e EPA t o d a y .
So y o u c a n ' t t e l l by newspaper h e a d l i n e s and by t h e s e f e l l o w s
a r ebehind i n t h e p o l l s .
Look a t t h e f a c t s .
(Applause.)
that
MR. BECKEL:
Folks,
please.
MR. BROWN: Hey, w a i t a m i n u t e .
.
E v e r y major -- w a i t .
Every
major e n v i r o n m e n t a l o r g a n i z a t i o n s a y s A r k a n s a s i s an e n v i r o n m e n t a l
d i s a s t er .
SE'N. HARKIN: T h a t ' s r i g h t .
E v e r y one o f them.
Every
o f them s a y s A r k a n s a s i s a d i s a s t e r .
That's t r u e .
one
single
GOV. CLINTON:
Now w a i t a m i n u t e .
Then why d i d t h e — w a i t .
Why d i d t h e S i e r r a C l u b e n d o r s e e me i n 1990? Why d i d t h e N a t u r e
C o n s e r v a n c y g i v e me a n a t i o n a l award t h r e e o r f o u r y e a r s ago? Why
were r e r e c o g n i z e d f o r h a v i n g a n a t i o n a l model o f r e f o r e s t a t i o n
program; a n a t i o n a l program i n water p o l l u t i o n s t a n d a r d s ?
G i v e me a b r e a k .
Look a t t h e r e c o r d s .
n o t w o r t h t h e paper i t ' s p r i n t e d o n .
're
MR. BECKEL:
I f we g e t much more p a p e r t h r o w n a r o u n d up h e r e
g o i n g t o need a r e c y c l i n g p r o g r a m up h e r e .
(Laughter.)
Senator
—
GOV. CLINTON:
MR. TSONGAS:
fast
of
Not one s t u d y t h a t i s
I ' d be f o r t h a t .
May I r e s p o n d ?
MR. BECKEL: S e n a t o r — y e s , p l e a s e .
And t h e n
q u e s t i o n f o r a l l o f y o u on t h e e n v i r o n m e n t .
MR. TSONGAS:
f i r e . (Laugher.)
I ' v e g o t one
L e t me j u s t s a y i t ' s n i c e t o be o u t o f t h e l i n e
B u t l e t ' s keep t h i s i n p e r s p e c t i v e .
On h e a l t h c a r e , on c i v i l
d i f f e r e n c e s b e t w e e n u s . I was
c o m m u n i t y and I'm p r o u d o f i t ,
whatever d i f f e r e n c e s e x i s t a r e
And t h a t ' s what we a r e t a l k i n g
r i g h t s , on t h i s i s s u e , t h e r e may be
e n d o r s e d by t h e e n v i r o n m e n t a l
b u t y o u ' v e g o t t o remember t h a t
m a r g i n a l compared t o George Bush.
about.
(Applause.)
And-when George Bush s a i d , he was g o i n g t o be t h e e n v i r o n m e n t a l
president — (Laughter).
You s e e , I j u s t s a y t h e w o r d s and y o u
l a u g h — and t h e n t r i e d t o d e s t r o y h a l f o f t h e w e t l a n d s i n t h i s
n t r y w i t h o u t embarrassment.
T h a t ' s why h e ' s g o i n g t o l o s e .
.ETX
�MARYLAND DEMO DEBATE-03/01/92
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PAGE 7-4
Thtere's no c o r e p r i n c i p l e t h e r e on n o t o n l y t h e e n v i r o n m e n t
b u t women's i s s u e s and t h e o t h e r s .
And t h i s i s j u s t one e x a m p l e ,
one e x a m p l e o f why t h e D e m o c r a t s have s o m e t h i n g t o s a y n o t 'only t o
D e m o c r a t s and I n d e p e n d e n t s b u t t h o u g h t f u l , m o d e r a t e d e c e n t
R e p u b l i c a n s , come on b o a r d .
M : BECKEL: S e n a t o r , t h i s r a i s e s a q u e s t i o n w h i c h i s
R.
p o l i t i c a l but e n v i r o n m e n t a l l y connected.
We j u s t l i s t e n e d t o a
f a i r l y heated exchange here.
T h e r e a r e t h o s e who b e l i e v e t h a t t h e
e n v i r o n m e n t h a s been an i s s u e t h a t ' s h e l p e d t h e D e m o c r a t s .
There've
been few o f them l a t e l y .
T h a t one does.
You. a l l h a v e t a k e n a l o t o f t i m e a t t a c k i n g one a n o t h e r ,
.
w h e t h e r i t ' s on n u c l e a r power o r a t t a c k i n g G o v e r n o r — on f i v e
c e n t s , on a l l t h e t h i n g s y o u a l l have a t t a c k e d each o t h e r a b o u t .
And t h e a l l e g a t i o n i s t h a t what y o u ' r e d o i n g i s p l a y i n g i n t o t h e
h a n d s o f t h e R e p u b l i c a n s by a t t a c k i n g each o t h e r a s s t r o n g l y a s y o u
h a v e , p a r t i c u l a r l y a r o u n d e n e r g y and e n v i r o n m e n t a l i s s u e s w h i c h
s h o u l d be o u r s .
How do y o u r e s p o n d t o t h a t ? A r e y o u a l l h u r t i n g whoever
e v o l v e s h e r e ' s c h a n c e s i n t h e end'"'
SEN.
HARKIN:
I t h i n k we o u g h t t o g e t t h e r e c o r d o u t .
We
to look a t the record.
T h a t ' s what we o u g h t t o l o o k a t .
GOV. CLINTON: T h i s i s a c o n t e s t and I d o n ' t have any p r o b l e m
w i t h i t . I j u s t bore t h e b r u n t o f a l l t h i s l a s t l i t t l e round here,
b u t w e ' r e a l l g o i n g t'O have t o l i v e w i t h o u r r e c o r d a s w e l l a s o u r
recommendations.
And i f y o u l o o k a t t h e — I ' v e been i n 17
e l e c t i o n s i n 17 y e a r s and my body h a s t h e s c a r t i s s u e t o show i t .
And n o t h i n g we've done r e m o t e l y compares w i t h t h e k i n d o f v i c i o u s •
h i t s t h a t George Bush a n d h i s p e o p l e w i l l a p p l y .
is
How d i d he g e t e l e c t e d l a s t t i m e ?
"Read my l i p s "
a bum." I mean, t h a t ' s a l l t h e y know.
and " D u k a k i s
So I t h i n k t h a t h a v i n g t h e s e a r g u m e n t s i s n o t d e s t r u c t i v e a s
l o n g as we remember what S e n a t o r Tsongas s a i d .
I w i l l t e l l you
something.
I d o n ' t mind a r g u i n g w i t h t h e s e f o l k s and I ' l l do i t
u n t i l t o m o r r o w a t dawn i f y o u w a n t .
B u t when t h e cows come home,
I'm g o i n g t o be t r y i n g t o r e p l a c e George Bush, w h e t h e r I f i n i s h
f i r s t or l a s t i n t h e p r i m a r y .
And as l o n g a s we s a y t h a t ,
(. App 1 a u s e . )
MR. BECKEL:
move o n .
we're g o i n g
t o be f i n e .
Anyone e l s e l i k e t o r e s p o n d ?
And t h e n
I want t o
MR. BROWN: No. I t h i n k t h e r e ' s a l o t o f d i v i s i o n y e t t o be
in t h i s Party.
I mean, r i g h t now t h e r e ' s a b i l l i n C o n g r e s s on
e n e r g y t h a t i s g o i n g t o g i v e $11 b i l l i o n l o a n f o r g i v e n e s s t o t h e
. ETX
�MARYLAND DEMO DEBATE-03/01/92
PAGE
:x
^ ^ ^ ^c l e a r
i n d u s t r y ; t h a t d o e s n ' t commit i t s e l f
e f f i c i e n c y , c o n s e r v a t i o n and r e n e w a b l e s .
tia r e a l
investment i n
I mean, we have t o f i g h t f o r t h e s o u l o f t h i s P a r t y ; who a r e
we, whom do we r e p r e s e n t and how a r e we g o i n g t o r e s t o r e t r u e
. j u s t i c e and e n v i r o n m e n t a l q u a l i t y t o t h i s c o u n t r y .
I t takes a real
b a t t l e , drawing o f l i n e s .
We have t o d i v i d e now s o we c a n p r e s e r v e
and w i n t h e s o u l o f t h e D e m o c r a t i c P a r t y .
MP. BECKEL:
One f i n a l
7
word '
MR. TSONGAS: W e l l , I t h i n k t h i s f o r m a t g i v e s us an
opportunity.
I mean, a c h a r g e was made and a r e b u t t a l .
I t works
o u t f i n e and p e o p l e c a n make up t h e i r m i n d s .
What I o b j e c t t o a r e
a t t a c k ads, b e c a u s e t h e r e ' s no r e b u t t a l .
An i m p r e s s i o n i s l e f t .
So
t h a t ' s why i n Denver t h e o t h e r n i g h t I s u g g e s t e d t h a t we a l l a g r e e
we d o n ' t t a l k a b o u t anybody e l s e i n o u r ads.
I f t h e r e ' s an ad t h a t
someone does n o t l i k e t h a t I p u t o n , w e ' l l t a k e i t o f f .
But u l t i m a t e l y , we're n o t t h e enemy t o each o t h e r .
George
Bush i s t h e o b j e c t i v e .
What t h e p e o p l e want i s a Democrat i n t h e
W h i t e House t o change t h e d i r e c t i o n o f t h i s c o u n t r y .
And t h e more
we a t t a c k each o t h e r , t h e more we p l a y i n t o t h e hands o f George
Bush.
•
And I t h i n k t h a t , d e s p i t e some g i v e - a n d - t a k e h e r e , t h a t t h e
a t e e a r l i e r t o d a y i n G e o r g i a and t h i s d e b a t e i s a good g i v e - a n d take.
And t h e r e ' s n o t h i n g wrong w i t h t h a t .
And h o p e f u l l y t h i s c a n
continue i n t h e future.
will
MR. BECKEL: A l l r i g h t .
be d i f f e r e n t t o m o r r o w .
I'm g l a d t o hear t h a t .
next
Now,
we're g o i n g t o move on t o a c o u p l e
issue i s education.
o f other
The h e a d l i n e s
issues.
The
C o u l d y o u s a y who you'd l i k e t o a s k y o u r q u e s t i o n t o and a s k
y o u r q u e s t i o n , s i n c e we've now g i v e n a l l f o u r a chance?
0
My name i s L i t a O r a f i c i e ( p h ) .
I'm a g r a d u a t e s t u d e n t
a t t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f M a r y l a n d , t h e C o l l e g e Park S c h o o l o f P u b l i c
Affairs.
My q u e s t i o n i s f o r G o v e r n o r Brown.
I n t e r n a t i o n a l s u r v e y s show t h a t k i d s i n t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s do
l e s s homework b u t w a t c h
more TV t h a n t h e i r c o u n t e r p a r t s i n o t h e r
•advanced i n d u s t r i a l n a t i o n s .
Not s u r p r i s i n g l y , o u r k i d s s c o r e near
t h e bottom o f i n t e r n a t i o n a l t e s t s .
As P r e s i d e n t , what s p e c i f i c a l l y
.nation around?
MR. BROWN:
. ETX
To g e t
k i d s doing
w o u l d y o u do t o t u r n
more homework a t n i g h t ?
that
�MARYLAND DEMO DEBATE-03/01/92
X
PAGE 7-6
MS. ORAFICIE:
W e l l , t o g e t k i d s t o g e t — i f we s a y t h a t
A m e r i c a needs t o be more c o m p e t i t i v e , t h e h e a r t o f c o m p e t i t i v e n e s s
remains w i t h education.
MR. BROWN: I t does.
k i d s d o i n g more homework.
But t h e P r e s i d e n t
CONTINUED ON PAGE 8-1
. ETX
i s not going t o get
�"YLAND DEMO DEBATE-03/01/92
MP. BROWN:
PAGE 8-1
To g e t k i d s d o i n g more homework a t night'""
Q
W e l l , t o g e t k i d s — i f we s a y t h a t A m e r i c a needs t o be
more c o m p e t i t i v e , t h e h e a r t o f c o m p e t i t i v e n e s s r e m a i n s w i t h
e d u c a t i on.
MR. BROWN: I t does, b u t t h e p r e s i d e n t i s n o t g o i n g t o g e t
k i d s t o do t h a t e x t r a hour o f homework. We're t a l k i n g about a
c u l t u r e here.
We're t a l k i n g about a c u l t u r e t h a t , i n many ways, i s
i n f a n t i 1 i z i n g i t s e l f under t h e o n s l a u g h t o f c h e e s y a d v e r t i s i n g and
p r o l i f e r a t i n g empty Gong Show k i n d o f p r o g r a m s .
(Laughter,
applause.)
A l l r i g h t ' " ' Now, I ' d l i k e t o f i g u r e o u t a way a s
p r e s i d e n t t o upgrade the q u a l i t y o f the wasteland.
Q
How
would
you i n f l u e n c e t h a t ?
MR. BROWN: W e l l , I ' d p u t p e o p l e on t h e F e d e r a l C o m m u n i c a t i o n s
C o m m i s s i o n s u c h as someone l i k e y o u r s e l f — ( l a u g h t e r , a p p l a u s e )
—
who w o u l d l o o k w i t h a j a u n d i c e d e y e on w h a t ' s h a p p e n i n g t o t h e
television.
Because we s h o u l d have t w o o r t h r e e l e a r n i n g c h a n n e l s ,
w i t h t h e b e s t c o u r s e s , p a i d f o r by t h e t a x p a y e r s , i n u n i v e r s i t i e s
|^e t h i s and a c r o s s t h e c o u n t r y a v a i l a b l e t o a l l o u r p e o p l e .
And I want t o s a y i t ' s n o t j u s t about s c i e n c e and math; i t ' s
a l s o a b o u t a r t and m u s i c .
Our second p r e s i d e n t , John Adams, s a i d t o
A b i g a i l , he s a i d , "Look, i n t h i s g e n e r a t i o n , we have t o p r a c t i c e t h e
a r t o f war s o o u r sons can p r a c t i c e t h e a r t o f commerce so o u r
g r a n d c h i l d r e n c a n p r a c t i c e t h e a r t o f p a i n t i n g , p o r c e l a i n , and
music."
T h a t was 13 g e n e r a t i o n s ago.
Don't y o u t h i n k i t ' s t i m e we
g o t w i t h i t and c r e a t e d a r e n a i s s a n c e o f l e a r n i n g and i m a g i n a t i o n i n
t h i s country?
You
MR. BECKEL: Okay, t h a t ' s — we a p p r e c i a t e your q u e s t i o n s .
c a n a p p l y f o r t h e j o b a f t e r t h e show.
(Laughter.)
Go ahead.
Anyone e l s e want i n on t h i s ?
Go ahead.
MR. TSONGAS: The f a c t i s t h a t we l i v e i n a v e r y D a r w i n i a n
world.
I h a v e a 1 0 - y e a r - o l d d a u g h t e r , and s h e i s g o i n g t o compete
w i t h a 1 0 - y e a r - o l d from Japan and a 1 0 - y e a r - o l d f r o m Germany.
I may
not l i k e t h a t , b u t t h a t ' s t h e t r u t h .
And t h a t ' s what we have t o
accept.
I f we're g o i n g t o have a l e s s e r s t a n d a r d i n terms o f
g r a d u a t i o n , i n terms o f promotion, i n terms o f t h e hours i n t h e day,
i n t e r m s o f t h e number o f d a y s i n t h e y e a r , w e ' r e n o t g o i n g t o
compete.
And t h e end r e s u l t o f t h a t i s t h e d e c l i n e o f t h e A m e r i c a n
standard o f l i v i n g .
So, o n e , ! t h i n k : a p r e s i d e n t h a s t o g e t up and
•
^ j ^ ^ those things.
B u t , s e c o n d l y , and I a g r e e w i t h G o v e r n o r Brown, I t h i n k t h e
i s s u e goes f a r beyond t h e s p e c i f i c s .
It i s a culture.
I n my b o o k ,
"The C a l l t o Economic Arms," t h e l a s t c h a p t e r , i t ' s on c u l t u r e .
A
ET)
�MARYLAND DEMO DEBATE-03/01/92
PAGE 8-2
^ ^ P ? i o n i s o n l y as s t r o n g as i t s c u l t u r e .
And what we have n o t done
i n t h i s n a t i o n d u r i n g t h e '30s o f g r e e d and s e l f - i n d u l g e n c e i s t o
speak: i n c u l t u r a l t e r m s , o f s p i r i t u a l i t y , o f g i v i n g o u r c h i l d r e n
some b a s e s o t h e y know who t h e y a r e and what t h e y s t a n d f o r and
w h e r e t h e i r s e l f - e s t e e m has t o come f r o m .
T h a t ' s not j u s t l e a r n i n g .
You know, when I was a Peace C o r p s v o l u n t e e r and t e a c h i n g ,
E t h i o p i a , v i e w e d by many A m e r i c a n s as, q u o t e , " b a c k w a r d , " r e s p e c t e d
education.
I t was h o n o r e d .
I t was g i v e n v a l u e .
T h a t ' s not t r u e i n
t h i s country.
We're much more a n t i - i n t e l 1 e c t u a l t h a n i s
appropriate.
So, t h a t ' s what we have t o come back t o , a c u l t u r a l
d i s c u s s i o n — what i s t h e v a l u e s y s t e m o f t h i s c o u n t r y —• so o u r
k i d s , when t h e y grow up, a r e n o t g o i n g t o be i n f l u e n c e d by t h a t
w a s t e l a n d , b u t r a t h e r w i l l have a s e n s e o f t h e m s e l v e s and a c u l t u r e
which honors education.
MR. BECKEL:
All right.
Governor
Clinton?
GOV. CLINTON:
I b e l i e v e a p r e s i d e n t can a f f e c t a c u l t u r e and
a real education president could.
I ' v e d e v o t e d more t i m e and more
o f my p o l i t i c a l c a p i t a l i n t r y i n g t o i m p r o v e t h e e d u c a t i o n o f o u r
c h i l d r e n t h a n a n y t h i n g e l s e i n t h e l a s t 11 y e a r s .
I'm a l s o t h e
proud parent o f a student i n the 7th grade i n the p u b l i c schools i n
my s t a t e .
And a month ago, I s p o k e i n t h a t w o n d e r f u l h i g h s c h o o l i n
t B r o o k l y n where t h o s e t w o b o y s were s h o t down and m u r d e r e d j u s t
o u p l e o f d a y s ago.
I t h i n k i t ' s p l a i n what we need t o do.
F i r s t o f a l l , t h e P r e s i d e n t needs t o say, we l i v e i n a w o r l d
i n w h i c h what y o u e a r n depends on what y o u c a n l e a r n .
You have t o
stay i n school.
H e r e ' s what I owe y o u .
I owe y o u n a t i o n a l
s t a n d a r d s and a n a t i o n a l e x a m i n a t i o n system.
I owe y o u an a d e q u a t e
amount o f i n v e s t m e n t i n t h e p u b l i c s c h o o l s so we c a n have p r e s c h o o l
p r o g r a m s f o r a l l and b e f o r e and a f t e r s c h o o l p r o g r a m s s o c h i l d r e n
can spend more t i m e s t u d y i n g .
My d a u g h t e r c a n go t o s c h o o l any
m o r n i n g a t 7:00 i n t h e m o r n i n g and have e x t r a homework t i m e w i t h
h e l p from a teacher t h e r e .
We owe y o u a c c e s s t o an a p p r e n t i c e s h i p p r o g r a m f o r t w o y e a r s
of t r a i n i n g a f t e r high school.
We owe y o u a c c e s s t o c o l l e g e w i t h o u t
r e g a r d t o y o u r income.
I propose a n a t i o n a l system o f v o l u n t a r y
s e r v i c e s o any Amer i can can b o r r o w t l i e money t o go t o c o l l e g e — any
A m e r i c a n — and p a y i t back w i t h a s m a l l p e r c e n t a g e o f income over
t i m e o r w i t h t w o y e a r s o f s e r v i c e t o o u r c o u n t r y h e r e a t home as
t e a c h e r s , p o l i c e o f f i c e r s , or whatever.
But what y o u owe us i s t o s t a y i n s c h o o l and do your b e s t . I n
my s t a t e , i f y o u d r o p o u t o f s c h o o l f o r no good r e a s o n , y o u l o s e
y o u r d r i v e r ' s l i c e n s e . I f y o u ' r e a p a r e n t and y o u won't show up f o r
a p a r e n t c o n f e r e n c e r e p e a t e d l y , ' y o u c a n be f i n e d .
B u t we a l s o have
b e s t p r o g r a m s f o r p r e s c h o o l o f any s t a t e i n t h e S o u t h .
Thirtyp e r c e n t o f o u r f o u r - y e a r - o l d s i n p r e s c h o o l p r o g r a m s now, and
proud o f t h a t .
We can do s o m e t h i n g .
•
. ET)
.
�MARYLAND DEMO DEBATE-03/01/92
PAGE 3-3
;x
MR. BECKEL:
Senator
Harkin?
SEN. HARKIN: W e l l , I a g r e e w i t h a l l t h a t ' s been s a i d b e f o r e
me.
I do b e l i e v e t h a t we're m i s s i n g t h e p o i n t h e r e .
I'm i n a
unique p o s i t i o n .
I s e r v e on b o t h t h e Labor and E d u c a t i o n
A u t h o r i s i n g C o m m i t t e e , and I c h a i r t h e A p p r o p r i a t i o n s C o m m i t t e e i n
t h e S e n a t e on E d u c a t i o n .
So, f o r s e v e r a l y e a r s , I ' v e been
i n t i m a t e l y i n v o l v e d w i t h a l l o f t h e e d u c a t i o n a l programs i n America.
And what we have gone down i s t h e t r a c k o f p a t c h i n g and f i x i n g and
mend i ng.
H a b i t s a r e formed e a r l y i n l i f e .
We know t h a t .
And s o , what
I have been c a l l i n g f o r , and I ' v e been t r y i n g t o move o u r
e d u c a t i o n a l s y s t e m t o , i s e a r l y i n t e r v e n t i o n p r o g r a m s . We have t o
rethink: education i n t h i s country.
We have t o t h i n k t h a t e d u c a t i o n
b e g i n s a t b i r t h , and t h e p r e p a r a t i o n f o r e d u c a t i o n b e g i n s even
before b i r t h .
That means m a t e r n a l and c h i l d h e a l t h c a r e p r o g r a m s
o u g h t t o be f u n d e d , b e c a u s e when t h a t c h i l d i s b o r n h e a l t h y , t h a t
c h i l d i s b e t t e r a b l e t o l e a r n , when we have H e a l t h y S t a r t p r o g r a m s
and f u l l y f u n d e d Women, I n f a n t s , and C h i l d r e n p r o g r a m s .
I n 19S8, Bush a s a c a n d i d a t e s a i d he w a n t e d t o f u l l y f u n d Head
Start.
He j u s t d i d n ' t t e l l y o u when.
(Laughter.)
Under h i s
o p o s a l s , w e ' l l f u l l y f u n d i t i n t h e y e a r 2050.
That i s t o t a l l y
Acceptable.
So, we have t o r e a c h o u t .
•
Dr. T e r r y B r a z e l t o n Csp) from H a r v a r d h a s p o i n t e d o u t , h a s
shown, w i t h s c i e n t i f i c p r o o f , t h a t y o u c a n r a i s e t h e 10 o f any c h i l d
by 13 p o i n t s b e f o r e t h e age o f t h r e e . T h a t ' s w h e r e we have t o f o c u s
our a t t e n t i o n .
Early intervention, early education, early health
c a r e p r o g r a m s t o g e t t h e s e k i d s ' h a b i t s l e a r n e d e a r l y on i n l i f e .
And t h e n , when we g e t t o s c h o o l , we have t o have more g u i d a n c e
c o u n s e l o r s i n o u r e l e m e n t a r y s c h o o l s ; we have t o have s m a l l e r c l a s s
s i z e s , and I have p r o p o s e d t h a t no e l e m e n t a r y c l a s s be b i g g e r t h a n
25 s t u d e n t s ; and l a s t , we need t o make s u r e t h a t we have s t r o n g and
w e l l - f u n d e d g i f t e d and t a l e n t e d p r o g r a m s f o r o u r e x c e p t i o n a l
students.
M ' BECKEL: A l l r i g h t .
R.
Thank y o u , S e n a t o r .
I'm a f r a i d we're
g o i n g t o have t o move on t o a n o t h e r t o p i c .
We're r u n n i n g s h o r t o f
t i me.
Stan
The n e x t
Turner.
Q
topic
i s foreign policy,
and y o u r q u e s t i o n ,
please,
I'm A d m i r a l S t a n s f i e l d T u r n e r o f t h e f a c u l t y o f t h e
School o f " P u b l i c A f f a i r s .
Mr. Bush's f a i l u r e t o d r i v e Saddam
H u s s e i n o u t o f power i n I r a q h a s l e d t o some p e o p l e c a l l i n g f o r a
^ ^ ^ i c y of assassination.
G o v e r n o r C l i n t o n , do y o u f e e l
^ ^ H a s s i n a t i on i s an a c c e p t a b l e c o u r s e f o r t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s w i t h
r e g a r d t o f o r e i g n l e a d e r s u n d e r any c i r c u m s t a n c e ?
. ETX
�MARYLAND DEMO DEBATE-03/01/92
PAGE B-4
GOV. CLINTON: Under any c i r c u m s t a n c e I c a n t h i n k o f , n o . We
t o o k a s t a n d a g a i n s t a s s a s s i n a t i o n , as y o u know, A d m i r a l , and y o u r
d i s t i n g u i s h e d l e a d e r s h i p i n t h e C a r t e r a d m i n i s t r a t i o n s t o o d up f o r
that p r i n c i p l e .
That i s a v e r y s l i p p e r y s l o p e f o r us t o go down.
We've h a d p r e s i d e n t s a s s a s s i n a t e d i n t h i s c o u n t r y , and we know how
p a i n f u l and a w f u l i t c a n b e .
On t h e o t h e r hand, I d o n ' t t h i n k we c a n r u l e o u t m i l i t a r y
a c t i o n , i n w h i c h a r u l e r o f a n o t h e r c o u n t r y m i g h t o r m i g h t n o t be
k i l l e d , i f they v i o l a t e i n t e r n a t i o n a l law, i f t h e y t h r e a t e n t h e
s e c u r i t y o f t h e i r n e i g h b o r s and t h e y t h r e a t e n o u r s e c u r i t y .
And I
t h i n k we're g o i n g t o have a m o n t h l y g u t c h e c k , no m a t t e r who's
e l e c t e d p r e s i d e n t , e v e r y month f o r t h e n e x t f o u r o r f i v e y e a r s ,
maybe b e y o n d , i n t r y i n g t o keep d i c t a t o r s i n I r a q , I r a n , K o r e a , and
o t h e r p l a c e s from g e t t i n g n u c l e a r c a p a c i t y .
And I t h i n k , we have t o
be v e r y t o u g h , h o p e f u l l y w o r k i n g t h r o u g h t h e UN, i n i n s p e c t i o n s i n
t r y i n g t o prevent that sort o f t h i n g .
But an a c t u a l t a k e o u t o p e r a t i o n , I d o n ' t t h i n k o u r c o u n t r y
ought t o get i n t o t h a t .
T h a t ' s n o t t h e k i n d o f c o u n t r y we a r e . I f
w e ' r e g o i n g t o go t o war w i t h somebody o r engage i n m i l i t a r y combat,
l e t ' s do i t i n an open, s t r a i g h t f o r w a r d way, based on s e t t l e d
p r i n c i p l e s o f i n t e r n a t i o n a l l a w and u n d e r s t a n d a b l e r u l e s t h a t make
l e g a l and p r o p e r .
I j u s t d o n ' t want t o s e e our c o u n t r y g e t i n t o
h i t squad b u s i n e s s .
*
shot
MR. BECKEL: A l l r i g h t , g e n t l e m e n .
Do y o u a l l want t o t a k e a
a t t h a t , p l e a s e ? Go a h e a d , S e n a t o r — o k a y , Governor Brown.
MR. BROWN: Yeah, I c a n ' t e n v i s i o n a s s a s s i n a t i o n as a p o l i c y
o f t h e c o u n t r y o f J e f f e r s o n and W a s h i n g t o n and t h e f o r e b e a r s t h a t we
p r o u d l y descend from.
B u t , more i m p o r t a n t l y , what i s f o r e i g n
policy"
Sometimes, when p e o p l e a s k me a b o u t t h a t , I have t h e s e n s e ,
"Who y o u g o i n g t o k i l l , Brown'"""
B u t , r e a l l y , f o r e i g n p o l i c y o u g h t t o be a b o u t d e a l i n g w i t h t h e
l a r g e s t issues a f f e c t i n g humanity.
And t h e f i r s t i s h u n g e r .
L e t us
end w o r l d h u n g e r .
Human r i g h t s ; l e t ' s end t o r t u r e t o t h e e x t e n t
t h a t we as a n a t i o n c a n do t h a t , u n i t e d w i t h o t h e r c o u n t r i e s .
Let's
be t h e l e a d e r s i n s t o p p i n g t h e s e o b s c e n e arms s a l e s .
D i d n ' t Bush
say, B a k e r , t e n months ago, we w e r e n ' t g o i n g t o s e l l a s many arms i n
t h e M i d d l e E a s t ? They j u s t s o l d $6 b i l l i o n a l r e a d y , and t h e y ' v e g o t
s e v e r a l b i l l i o n more t o go.
I mean, l e t ' s c u r b t h o s e arms s a l e s .
T h a t ' s f o r e i g n p o l i c y t h a t we're n e g l e c t i n g .
CONTINUED ON PAGE 9-1
.ETX
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JX
PAGE 9-1
And f i n a l l y , l e t ' s r e g a i n t h e m o r a l l e a d e r s h i p on t h e g l o b a l
environment.
And when we do t h a t , we i n s t i l l and s t r e n g t h e n t h e
v e r y v a l u e s t h a t make A m e r i c a A m e r i c a and b r i n g o u t o f o u r c i t i z e n s
t h e v e r y b e s t t h a t ' s i n them.
MR. BECKEL:
Senator
Tsongas?
MP. TSONGAS: A d m i r a l , I t h i n k a s s a s s i n a t i o n ' s n o t a p p r o p r i a t e
and t h a t ' s n o t A m e r i c a .
We're above t h a t .
I f we do n o t —
( i n a u d i b l e ) — j u s t i c e and b e h a v i o r , who e l s e i s g o i n g t o do i t ?
L e t me j u s t say when — t h i s i s a l o n g s t o r y , I ' l l make i t s h o r t —
when I was i n t h e Peace C o r p s , one day I r o d e w i t h my s t u d e n t s i n t o
t h e E t h i o p i a n c o u n t r y s i d e h o u r s and h o u r s and h o u r s .
We came t o a
man's h u t . We w a l k e d i n . T h e r e were t w o p i c t u r e s on t h e w a l l .
One
was H a i l e S e l a s s i who was t h e Emperor o f E t h i o p i a , t h e o t h e r one was
Jack Kennedy.
We s t o o d f o r s o m e t h i n g t h e n .
L i k e Jimmy C a r t e r s t o o d
f o r human r i g h t s .
We have go back t o t h a t s t a n d a r d .
When George Bush o v e r l o o k e d Tiananmen S q u a r e , A m e r i c a l o s t
s o m e t h i n g , s o m e t h i n g p r e c i o u s , s o m e t h i n g s a c r e d , and w h a t e v e r
d i f f e r e n c e s we may have a g a i n , I r e p e a t , t h a t o u r f o r e i g n p o l i c y
w i l l be based on p r i n c i p l e s t h a t we embrace a t home. What George
Bush h a s done i s once he l e a v e s t h e s e b o r d e r s , w h i c h he does a l l t h e
t_ime, he abandons o u r p r i n c i p l e s and i t becomes e x p e d i e n c y and t h a t
n o t what A m e r i c a ' s a l l a b o u t .
MR. BECKEL:
Senator H a r k i n
—
(applause)
—
SEN. HARKIN: The s h o r t answer i s n o , o f c o u r s e n o t . (You
d o n ' t ? ) engage i n a s s a s s i n a t i o n s .
And a g a i n , my r e c o r d i s c l e a r on
this.
The f i r s t b i l l t h a t I p a s s e d a s a f r e s h m a n Congressman i n
1375 was t h e human r i g h t s amendment.
S e t up t h e human r i g h t s
o f f i c e , p r o v i d e d f o r human r i g h t s a s s e s s m e n t i n c o u n t r i e s b e f o r e we
p e r m i t f o r e i g n a i d and f o r e i g n arms t o go t o t h o s e c o u n t r i e s . So I
have a l o n g h i s t o r y i n t h a t .
What Bush h a s t a k e n u s t o i s a f o r e i g n
p o l i c y b a s e d upon one p r e m i s e , t h e enemy o f my enemy i s my f r i e n d .
And t h a t h a s g o t t e n us i n t o a l l k i n d s o f t r o u b l e .
T h a t ' s what l e d
George Bush t o c o d d l e Saddam H u s s e i n f o r s e v e r a l y e a r s .
I t ' s what
l e d George Bush and t h e CIA t o p u t Norie^ga on t h e p a y r o l l . I t ' s
what l e d George Bush and t h e Peagan a d m i n i s t r a t i o n t o b e f r i e n d
Marcos i n t h e P h i l i p p i n e s .
We have t o have a p o l i c y o f e n g e n d e r i n g human r i g h t s .
As
G o v e r n o r Brown s a i d , h e a l t h and e d u c a t i o n d e v e l o p m e n t .
I have j u s t
i n t r o d u c e d l e g i s l a t i o n t h a t w o u l d s a y t h a t o u r r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s on
t h e W o r l d Bank, IMF, I n t e r - d e v e l o p m e n t A m e r i c a n Bank, a l l t h e s e
l e n d i n g i n s t i t u t i o n s , a r e t o v o t e a g a i n s t any l o a n t o any T h i r d
W o r l d c o u n t r y t h a t s p e n d s more on t h e i r m i l i t a r y t h a n t h e y do on
h e a l t h and e d u c a t i o n i n t h e i r own c o u n t r y .
That's t h e kind o f
e i g n p o l i c y we o u g h t t o helve.
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MARYLAND DEMO DEBATE-03/01/92
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MR. BECKEL: You Know, l a d i e s and g e n t l e m e n , I want t o f o l l o w
'with a q u e s t i o n , i f I c o u l d , and I d o n ' t t h i n k y o u ' r e g o i n g t o
ke my q u e s t i o n , Governor Brown, I'm S'lirry, b e c a u s e i t h a s t o do
with shooting people again.
But I want t o f o l l o w up and ask y o u
t h i s question.
And I ' l l s t a r t w i t h y o u , G o v e r n o r Brown.
The — had
you been p r e s i d e n t d u r i n g D e s e r t S t o r m , and y o u had made t h e same
d e c i s i o n George Bush had t o commit t o D e s e r t S t o r m , w o u l d y o u have
gone on i n t o Baghdad t o s e c u r e Baghdad and t h e t o p p l i n g o f Saddam
H u s s e i n i f — and t h e s e a r e my f i g u r e s — t h e l o s s o f A m e r i c a n l i v e s
were i n t h e n e i g h b o r h o o d o f 2,000?
MR. BROWN: F i r s t o f a l l , I d o n ' t b e l i e v e we have t h e f u l l
f a c t s on e x a c t l y what was p o s s i b l e l e a d i n g up t o t h e d e c i s i o n t o
commit men and weapons t o t h a t b a t t l e .
Okay?
I t h i n k we r e a l l y
know — ( a p p l a u s e ) •— what happened.
S e c o n d l y , I d i d oppose t h e
commencement o f h o s t i l i t i e s and I t h i n k t h e s u b s e q u e n t e v e n t s have
p r o v e d t h a t d e c i s i o n r i g h t b e c a u s e we're s t i l l
j u s t a s d e p e n d e n t on
oil.
Saddam H u s s e i n i s s t i l l t h e r e i n c h a r g e .
And we're s t i l l
f a c i n g t h e same k i n d o f c o n f l i c t s i n t h e M i d d l e E a s t t h a t we had a
year ago.
Now, when y o u s t a r t a war, i f i t ' s t o d e f e n d democracy, s u r e ,
you make s u r e y o u remove t h e a d v e r s a r y o r y o u g e t a s e t t l e m e n t — a
peace t h a t i s s e c u r e .
B u t I b e l i e v e we've s t a r t e d down t h a t r o a d
and t h e f a c t t h a t t h e y l e f t Saddam H u s s e i n t h e r e was j u s t a n o t h e r
J u d i c a t i o n i t was p a r t o f a r e a l p o l i t i c . They were g i v i n g Saddam
^ ^ A s e i n AWACS r a d a r i n f o r m a t i o n a few weeks — t h a t ' s what t h e Bush
^ P m i n i s t r a t i o n was d o i n g — b e f o r e he even i n v a d e d K u w a i t .
So what
I'm s a y i n g i s i f t h e war i s j u s t i f i e d o b v i o u s l y y o u want t o g e t an
h o n o r a b l e peace.
But I r e a l l y t h i n k —
MR. BECKEL:
to
MR. BROWN:
finish.
MR. BECKEL:
(Inaudible)
—
I'm s a y i n g t h a t
y e s on t h a t ?
I s t h e answer
w h o l e war was b u n g l e d
from
start
Then t h e —
MR. BROWN: And i t i s — i t j u s t — i t was bad f r o m t h e
b e g i n n i n g and i t ' s — and t h e c o n s e q u e n c e s a r e , I t h i n k we're
r e a p i n g them and t h e y ' r e g o i n g t o grow.
MR. BECKEL:
yes?
A l l right
—
still
Governor C l i n t o n ?
GOV. CLINTON: The answer t o your q u e s t i o n i s no I w o u l d n o t
have marched on Baghdad b e c a u s e we gave seven o f o u r Arab a l l i e s o u r
word t h a t we w o u l d n o t do t h a t i n r e t u r n f o r t h e i r j o i n i n g t h e
United Nations c o a l i t i o n .
What I w o u l d have done, however, i s t o
t a k e G e n e r a l S c h w a r z k o p f ' s a d v i c e and s t a y — and a v o i d t h e PR v a l u e
o f t h e 100 h o u r w a r , s t a y a n o t K e r d a y and a h a l f , d e s t r o y e d a
n i f i c a n t p o r t i o n o f t h e R e p u b l i c a n Guard and 700 t a n k s and g i v e n
I r a q i s t h e i r own c h a n c e t o o v e r t h r o w Saddam H u s s e i n w h i c h I
nk m i g h t h a v e happened.
T h a t ' s what s h o u l d have done — we
u l d h a v e done —
«
.ETX
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PAGE 9-;
I want t o s a y one o t h e r t h i n g .
I don't accept t h e premise
t h a t war was j u s t a b o u t o i l .
That war was a b o u t i n v a s i o n . I t
was a b o u t a d i c t a t o r i n v a d i n g a n o t h e r c o u n t r y .
I t was about
t h r e a t e n i n g even o t h e r c o u n t r i e s l i k e S a u d i A r a b i a .
I t was a b o u t
our f r i e n d s , t h e o n l y democracy i n t h e M i d d l e E a s t , I s r a e l , who
b a d l y w a n t e d u s t o be i n v o l v e d t h e r e and s t o p Saddam H u s s e i n b e f o r e
he went f u r t h e r .
I t was a b o u t much, much more t h a n o i l .
And I
t h i n k t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t s h o u l d have f o l l o w e d G e n e r a l S c h w a r z k o p f ' s
a d v i ce.
^ ^ ^ ^a t
One l a s t p o i n t , when i t was o v e r , we a c t e d l i k e Saddam H u s s e i n
was o u r l a s t b e s t f r i e n d .
We c o u l d n ' t w a i t t o keep h i m i n power.
We're n o t g o i n g t o be a b l e t o e x p l a i n why we t r y t o a s s a s s i n a t e h i m
i f we do n o t . I t was s h a m e l e s s what we a l l o w e d t o happen t o t h e
S h i ' i t e s a n d t h e K u r d s when i t was o v e r .
B u t i t s h o u l d have gone
on, I t h i n k , a s S c h w a r z k o p f w a n t e d , f o r a n o t h e r d a y and a h a l f b u t ,
no, even I have t o g i v e t h i s t o George Bush.
We gave o u r word we
w o u l d n ' t march on Baghdad and we s h o u l d n ' t do i t .
We gave o u r word
we w o u l d n ' t do i t .
MR. BECKEL:
Senator
Harkin?
SEN. HARKIN:
I think — I think the question r e a l l y i s a
wrong q u e s t i o n .
Y o u ' r e a s k i n g u s what we w o u l d do w i t h t h e mess
^ ^ h a t George Bush g o t u s i n t o . As P r e s i d e n t , we w o u l d n ' t have g o t t e n
^ ^ ^ t h a t mess, y o u see?
(Applause.)
Because f o r s e v e r a l y e a r s
^ ^ ^ f o r e t h a t , Bush and Reagan c o d d l e d Saddam H u s s e i n .
Governor
Brown's r i g h t .
They gave h i m i n f o r m a t i o n . We t r i e d s e v e r a l t i m e s
i n t h e C o n g r e s s t o p u t s a n c t i o n s on I r a q .
E v e r y t i m e t h e Bush
a d m i n i s t r a t i o n s a i d no t h e y w o u l d v e t o i t .
W i t h i n j u s t a week o f
t h e i n v a s i o n , we t r i e d t o p u t on s a n c t i o n s .
Bush s a i d no. Bush
s e n t h i s ambassador t o s e e Saddam H u s s e i n t o t e l l h i m t h a t we had no
o p i n i o n on h i s b o r d e r d i s p u t e s .
Green l i g h t — g r e e n l i g h t .
And t h e n a f t e r he t o o k over K u w a i t , o u r ambassador was q u o t e d
a s s a y i n g we d i d n ' t t h i n k h e ' d t a k e i t a l l .
W e l l , how much, Mr.
Bush, d i d y o u t h i n k he w o u l d t a k e ?
What w e r e y o u w i l l i n g t o a c c e p t ?
T h a t ' s what g o t u s i n t o t h i s mess i s t h i s i d e a t h e enemy o f my
enemy's my f r i e n d .
And t h a t ' s why he b e f r i e n d e d Saddam H u s s e i n a l l
t h o s e ye^ars.
•
As P r e s i d e n t , I w o u l d have done what John Kennedy d i d d u r i n g
t h e Cuban m i s s i l e c r i s i s .
Not w a i t u n t i l t h e y go t o war —
s o m e t h i n g h a p p e n s t h e y go t o war t o g e t them o u t . You s e e what John
Kennedy s a i d t o K h r u s h c h e v , he s a i d , "You're n o t g o i n g t o p u t t h e
m i s s i l e s i n Cuba." He d i d n ' t w a i t u n t i l ( h e g o t them i n ? ) and go t o
war t o g e t them o u t . And what I w o u l d have s a i d t o Saddam H u s s e i n
was j u s t what t h e B r i t i s h d i d i n 19S1 when I r a q t h r e a t e n e d K u w a i t .
They s e n t -some t r o o p s down ther.e and t h e y s a i d i f I r a q i n v a d e s
K u w a i t , t h e y f i g h t u s . Red l i g h t .
What I w o u l d have done as
s i d e n t when he moved h i s t r o o p s up f r o m t h e b o r d e r I ' d have s a i d
s t I r a q i t o c r o s s t h e b o r d e r i s a dead man b e c a u s e he's g o i n g t o
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9-4
f i g h t i n g t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s army and t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s
t r e d l i g h t w o u l d have s t o p p e d Saddam H u s s e i n .
but
MR.
I had
BECKEL: Okay.
(Laughter.)
t o do i t .
(Laughter.)
the
MR. TSONGAS: You j u s t
future?
(Laughter.)
MP.
BECKEL:
MP.
TSONGAS:
I'm
No,
t o o k my
Sorry
military,
about t h e red
j o k e , Bob.
C o u l d you
light,
defer i n
sorry.
you're
not.
(Laughter.)
L e t me say t h e answer i s no.
We were t h e r e under UN
r e s o l u t i o n s and we had a commitment t o t h o s e and we had t o s t i c k t o
them.
L e t me make one p o i n t a b o u t George Bush.
P e o p l e say he has
a l l t h i s foreign p o l i c y experience.
W e l l , e x p e r i e n c e and wisdom
a r e n ' t t h e same t h i n g .
(Applause.)
You can t a l k a b o u t Tiananmen S q u a r e , b u t l e t ' s j u s t t a l k a b o u t
t h a t one i n c i d e n t i n t h e P e r s i a n G u l f .
Remember when Saddam H u s s e i n
was A d o l p h H i t l e r ?
Remember? Okay. What happened? W e l l , when we
g o t t h e r e , J i m Baker and George Bush d e c i d e d t h e y w a n t e d an i n t a c t
I r a q as a —
( i n a u d i b l e ) — t o I s l a m i c fundamentalism.
So t h e
( f e a r ? ) t h a t they would d i v i d e t h e c o u n t r y i n t o t h e ( e x i s t e n t ? ) , t h e
S h i ' i t e and t h e K u r d i s h n a t i o n s was anathema b e c a u s e t h e y t h e n
r r i e d about I s l a m i c fundamentalism.
So what happened t o A d o l p h
ller?
He l i v e s .
T h a t i s n o t wisdom. That i s e x p e d i e n c y and
•
a t ' s why we g e t our s e l v e s i n t o t r o u b l e .
T h e r e a r e no b a s i c
p r i n c i p l e s t h a t a r e p e r m a n e n t t h a t we can r e l y upon.
I t ' s ad h o e i n g
y o u r way t h r o u g h f o r e i g n p o l i c y .
I t d o e s n ' t w o r k . You have t o have
a c o r e s e t o f b e l i e f s t h a t p e o p l e know what t h e y ' r e d e a l i n g w i t h and
t h e e x a m p l e s g i v e n h e r e e a r l i e r a b o u t our r e l a t i o n s h i p w i t h I r a q
over t h e y e a r s I t h i n k p o i n t s t h a t o u t as w e l l .
MR. BECKEL: Okay, l i s t e n , we've g o t v e r y , v e r y b r i e f t i m e ,
I ' l l ask you a l l t o l i m i t y o u r a n s w e r s t o ; !0 s e c o n d s on t h i s
q u e s t i o n . Please i d e n t i f y y o u r s e l f .
so
Q
Good e v e n i n g , my name i s R o l a n d a T e r r i l l ( s p ) . I'm a
m a s t e r s s t u d e n t at t h e School o f P u b l i c A f f a i r s .
S e n a t o r Tsongas,
i f t h e Supreme C o u r t o v e r r u l e s Roe v. Wade d u r i n g your p r e s i d e n c y ,
what m e a s u r e s , i f any, w i l l you t a k e t o e n s u r e a woman's r i g h t t o an
abor t i on?
MR. TSONGAS: L e t me s t a t e v e r y c l e a r l y t h i s i s an i s s u e I
care about d e s p e r a t e l y .
And when t h e women's g r o u p s i n New
H a m p s h i r e e n d o r s e d a c a n d i d a t e , I was t h a t c a n d i d a t e .
I'm t h e o n l y
c a n d i d a t e h e r e who's been r e s o l u t e on t h i s i s s u e , has made no
s t a t e m e n t s or has t a k e n no a c t i o n s t h a t w o u l d v i o l a t e t h a t .
Roe
v e r s u s Wade i s t h e l a w o f t h e l a n d .
I t s h o u l d r e m a i n t h e law o f t h e
d and George Bush who used t o be f o r P l a n n e d P a r e n t h o o d and made
t l o n g j o u r n e y , t h a t l o n g j o u r n e y t o t h e Reagan r i g h t t o be a n t i i c e , t h a t ' s t h e r e a l George Bush
—
•
.ETX
�MARYLAND DEMO DEBATE-03/01/92
. STX
MR. BECKEL:
Senator
PAGE 9-5
—
MR. TSONGAS: Roe v e r s u s Wade i s g o i n g t o be t h e l a w o f t h e
l a n d when I'm p r e s i d e n t o f t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s p e r i o d .
MR. BECKEL: G e n t l e m e n , p l e a s e , w e ' l l have t o have q u i c k
answers, p l e a s e .
S e n a t o r — Governor — I'm —
MR. BECKEL:
( O f f m i k e ) -- e v e r y t h i n g p o s s i b l e t o r e - e n a c t i t
t h r o u g h c o n g r e s s i o n a l e n a c t m e n t and I w o u l d j u s t p u t my r e c o r d
before people.
I a p p o i n t e d seven j u d g e s .
They u p h e l d t h e r i g h t o f
p r i v a c y i n c l u d i n g t h e r i g h t o f a woman t o make h e r own c h o i c e s and
r epr oduc t i ve dec i s i ons.
M : BECKEL:
R.
Thank y o u f o r y o u r
brevity.
Senator
Harkin?
SEN. HARKIN: E i r s t o f a l l , we w o u l d c o d i f y Roe v. Wade.
S e c o n d l y , I w o u l d n o t a p p o i n t any Supreme C o u r t j u s t i c e t h a t d i d n ' t
u p h o l d t h e p r i n c i p l e s and Roe v. Wade. And t h i r d , t h e s e s w e e p i n g
s t a t e m e n t s by Mr. Tsongas o f women's g r o u p s t h a t s u p p o r t e d h i m i n
New H a m p s h i r e , t h e f o r m e r p r e s i d e n t o f t h e N a t i o n a l Women's
P o l i t i c a l Caucus came up t h e r e t o c a m p a i g n f o r me.
I d o n ' t know
about a l l t h e s e grand sweeping s t a t e m e n t s t h a t a l l these
environmental groups.
CONTINUED ON PAGE 10-1
.ETX
�RYLAND DEMO DEBATE-03/01/92
X
PAGE
I have S i e r r a C l u b on my s i d e and o t h e r s t h a t
me.
These were j u s t b i g , huge, g e n e r a l
—
10-1
were c a m p a i g n i n g f o r
MR. BECKEL: F o l k s p l e a s e .
Governor C l i n t o n , I ' l l g i v e
a c h a n c e t o r e s p o n d , t h e n I ' l l have t o move on t o c l o s i n g
statements.
you
GOV.
CLINTON:
I w o u l d go as f a r as we c o u l d t o c o d i f y Roe
v. Wade. We c a n ' t do i t c o m p l e t e l y , b u t we c o u l d do s o m e t h i n g w i t h
the federal reproductive r i g h t s act.
I w o u l d r e s c i n d t h e gag o r d e r ,
and I w o u l d depose t h e J u s t i c e D e p a r t m e n t ' s p r e s e n t p o s i t i o n on
O p e r a t i o n Rescue.
And t h e n , i f g i v e n t h e o p p o r t u n i t y , I w o u l d
a p p o i n t a f a r h i g h e r q u a l i t y , more e x c e l l e n t Supreme C o u r t j u s t i c e
as we t a k e i t o u t o f p o l i t i c s , and I w o u l d e x p e c t t h e j u d g e s t o
b e l i e v e i n the b i l l of r i g h t s , i n c l u d i n g the r i g h t t o p r i v a c y .
MP. BECKEL: A l l r i g h t , g e n t l e m e n .
Thank you v e r y much.
We've come t o t h a t p o i n t i n t h e p r o g r a m —
f o l k s p l e a s e , we're
r u n n i n g very s h o r t of time.
We've come t o t h a t p o i n t i n t h e p r o g r a m
for c l o s i n g s t a t e m e n t s , n i n e t y s e c o n d s , by o r d e r o f l o t chosen we
begin w i t h Senator H a r k i n .
>
SEN.
HARKIN:
First,
I want t o t h a n k
t h e good D e m o c r a t s o f
•
^ y l a n d f o r s e n d i n g S e n a t o r S a r b a n e s and S e n a t o r M i k u l s k i t o
shington.
They d o n ' t come any b e t t e r t h a n t h a t .
H i , Barbara,
good t o see you.
T h i s e l e c t i o n , I b e l i e v e , i s a b o u t two t h i n g s . W i l l we make a
c l e a n w i t h Reagan, Bush, t r i c k l e down e c o n o m i c s ? And s e c o n d l y , w i l l
we f i g h t f o r t h e h e a r t and s o u l o f t h e D e m o c r a t i c p a r t y ?
Our
c a m p a i g n , I b e l i e v e , r e p r e s e n t s t h e c l e a n e s t b r e a k from t r i c k l e down
supply s i d e economics.
I a l s o b e l i e v e I have t h e m a t u r i t y , t h e j u d g m e n t and t h e
e x p e r i e n c e t o l e a d t h i s p a r t y and t o l e a d t h i s c o u n t r y .
I am t h e
most p r o g r e s s i v e o f t h e c a n d i d a t e s who a r e c a m p a i g n i n g t o d a y .
And I
b e l i e v e I can b e s t p u t f o r w a r d t h e D e m o c r a t i c v a l u e s up a g a i n s t
George Bush.
Our D e m o c r a t s o f c a r e , c o m p a s s i o n , and o p p o r t u n i t y , up
a g a i n s t George Bush's g r e e d and s e l f - i n t e r e s t .
T h a t ' s who we a r e as D e m o c r a t s .
L e t ' s n o t g i v e up our h e a r t
and s o u l . L e t ' s f i g h t f o r who we a r e and what we b e l i e v e i n as
Democrats i n t h i s c o u n t r y .
T h a t ' s what our c a m p a i g n has been a l l
about.
Not t r y i n g t o be T w e e d l e d e e , Tweedledum, a l i t t l e b i t o f
t h i s and a l i t t l e b i t o f t h a t .
I f t h a t ' s what you w a n t , t h e n you
d o n ' t want t o s u p p o r t
me.
But i f you want a tough, hard h i t t i n g p r o g r e s s i v e Democrat
^ t s t a n d s for c a r e and compassion, and o p p o r t u n i t y , I ask for your
pport on Tuesday t o do two t h i n g s .
Get r i d of t r i c k l e down s u p p l y
•
s i d e economics, and c a p t u r e t h e h e a r t and s o u l of the Democratic
p>arty and b r i n g p e o p l e i n t o t h e D e m o c r a t i c p a r t y a l l over America.
.ETX
�MARYLAND DEMO DEBATE-03/01/92
. STX
MR. BECKEL:
PAGE 10-2
Governor
Brown.
MR. BROWN: I come a t t h i s w i t h t h e e x p e r i e n c e o f b e i n g t h e
c h i e f e x e c u t i v e o f t h e l a r g e s t s t a t e , t h e e q u i v a l e n t — t h e economy
of t h e e i g h t h l a r g e s t
country i n the world.
I ' v e been a r o u n d
p o l i t i c s a l l my l i f e .
I n f a c t , back i n 1976 I r a n f o r p r e s i d e n t
a g a i n s t Jimmy C a r t e r i n t h i s v e r y s t a t e and b e a t h i m .
I ' v e g o t a l o t o f e x p e r i e n c e on how t h i s t h i n g w o r k s and I
l e f t p o l i t i c s i n 1983.
I came b a c k , I r e a l l y r u b b e d my nose i n i t
as; p a r t y c h a i r m a n .
And t h e r e ' s s o m e t h i n g w r o n g .
The g o v e r n i n g
e l i t e s o f t h i s c o u n t r y , t h e y ' r e j u s t b l o w i n g i t . Something i s n ' t
right out there.
M i l l i o n s o f p e o p l e a r e s u f f e r i n g and i t ' s n o t
necessary.
T h i s p o l i t i c a l system, i t ' s u n r e a l .
And I ' v e d e s i g n e d a
campaign t h a t ' s a cause.
We c a l l i t "we t h e p e o p l e . "
And i t
d e p e n d s on t h e A m e r i c a n p e o p l e t h e m s e l v e s t a k i n g back t h e i r
democracy.
And t h e r e a s o n why I ' v e c r i t i c i z e d and s t o o d a s i d e f r o m
t h e t h o u s a n d d o n a t i o n s and t h e p a c t s i s b e c a u s e I t h i n k we've g o t t o
t a k e a s l e d g e hammer t o b r e a k up t h e g r i d l o c k t h a t i s p a r a l y z i n g
t h i s country.
And t h a t ' s why I a s k p e o p l e , c a l l u s , j o i n i n and c a l l t h a t
) number.
426-1112 b e c a u s e on t h e b a s i s o f t h a t , y o u , wh9 d o n ' t
e power, c a n r e c a p t u r e what b e l o n g s t o you.
MR. BECKEL:
I just
ahead, Senator Tsongas.
MR. BPOWN:
bet,
MR. BECKEL:
please, Senator
MR. BROWN:
MR. BECKEL:
won a t h o u s a n d d o l l a r
426-1112
Go
—
Governor,
Tsongas.
We d o n ' t
b e t on t h a t .
I ' l l g i v e y o u t h e money I won on t h e
g e t a t h o u s a n d , we o n l y g e t a h u n d r e d .
I ' l l g i v e y o u a h u n d r e d , l e t ' s go.
MR. TSONGAS: The money c h a n g e r s a r e c o n t r o l l i n g t h e c o u n t r y
up h e r e .
I f e e l naked w i t h o u t an 800 number.
When I began t h i s
c a m p a i g n , i t ' l l be a year ago i n f i v e d a y s , George Bush was i n 9 1
percent.
I ' d been o u t o f o f f i c e f o r a l o n g t i m e , I was a Greek f r o m
M a s s a c h u s e t t s.
Why d i d I do i t ' " ' What was t h e p u r p o s e ?
I l i v e i nthe p r i v a t e
sector, the real world.
The U n i t e d S t a t e s i s g e t t i n g b e a t e n by t h e
J a p a n e s e a n d t h e Germans, a n d o t h e r s b e c a u s e o f t h e Reagan-Bush
a v o i d a n c e p o l i t i c s and I w a n t e d t o a l e r t t h e c o u n t r y .
Number o n e .
•
Number t w o , changed my p a r t y t o make i t r e s o l u t e on t h e s o c i a l
s u e s : human r i g h t s , women's r i g h t s , g a y r i g h t s , c i v i l r i g h t s and
. ETX
�MARYLAND DEMO DEBATE-03/01/92
. STX
PAGE 10-3
environment.
T h a t ' s t h e h e a r t and s o u l o f o u r p a r t y . Eiut
e r s t a n d , p e o p l e do n o t t r u s t t h e D e m o c r a t s w i t h t h e economy.
We
have t o r e a c h o u t t o t h e b u s i n e s s c o m m u n i t y .
Manufacturing.
This
s t a t e knows what happens when y o u l o s e m a n u f a c t u r i n g .
And f i n a l l y , t h e r e has t o be p u r p o s e g e n e r a t i o n a l 1 y .
The —
( i n a u d i b l e ) — was g i v e n t o u s by o u r a n c e s t o r s , make i t w h o l e , h e a l
i t , and t u r n t h a t over t o o u r c h i l d r e n . S o m e t h i n g t h a t Reagan-Bush
has no s e n s e o f i t .
MR. BECKEL:
Governor C l i n t o n .
GOV. CLINTON: F i r s t , I ' d l i k e t o t h a n k t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f
Maryland.
As a g r a d u a t e o f G e o r g e t o w n , i t ' s n i c e t o have s a f e
passage here t o n i g h t .
I ' d l i k e t o t h a n k t h e p e o p l e o f M a r y l a n d who
have s u p p o r t e d my c a m p a i g n , i n c l u d i n g L o u i e G e l s t e i n ( s p ) who was i n
p o l i t i c s b e f o r e I was b o r n , and Congressman H o y e r , and M c M i l l a n ,
Car d i n ( s p ) and my good f r i e n d Mayor Smoke ( s p ) f r o m B a l t i m o r e .
A l l o f y o u have a d e c i s i o n t o make. T h i s c o u n t r y h a s become
weak a t home and weaker a b r o a d .
We're l o s i n g o u r way, o u r w o r k i n g
people a r egoing d o w n h i l l , poverty i s exploding.
In this election,
you h a v e a c h a n c e t o v o t e f o r f u n d a m e n t a l change.
I have worked f o r
y e a r s as a g o v e r n o r t o c r e a t e j o b s , t o e d u c a t e c h i l d r e n , t o open
o p p o r t u n i t y , and t o change t h e w h o l e d i r e c t i o n o f t h e D e m o c r a t i c
ty.
I have o f f e r e d a d e t a i l e d p l a n t h a t goes beyond t h e t i r e d
b r o m i d e s o f l e f t and r i g h t , and l i b e r a l and c o n s e r v a t i v e , and i s
f o c u s e d on o p p o r t u n i t y , r e s p o n s i b i l i t y and c o m m u n i t y .
A plan that
yes, g i v e s b u s i n e s s e s t a r g e t i n c e n t i v e s t o r e - i n v e s t i n our c o u n t r y ,
b u t n o , does n o t r e l a x a c c o u n t a b i l i t y , no does n o t g i v e an a c r o s s
t h e b o a r d c a p i t a l g a i n s t a x , and y e s s a y s , p e o p l e a r e more i m p o r t a n t
t h a n money. We've g o t t o r e o r g a n i z e o u r p e o p l e , e d u c a t e them,
e n a b l e them t o compete and w i n i n a g l o b a l economy.
I f y o u w i l l l o o k a t my r e c o r d , i f y o u w i l l l o o k a t my p l a n , i f
you w i l l measure my c o m m i t m e n t , I hope y o u w i l l s u p p o r t me h e r e on
Tuesday.
Thank y o u v e r y much.
MR. BECKEL: F o l k s , I want t o t h a n k y o u a l l f o r your
p a t i e n c e , e x c e p t f o r t h e guy t h a t i n t e r r u p t e d me. I want t o a l s o
t h a n k e v e r y b o d y who's l i s t e n i n g o u t t h e r e i n t h i s v i e w e r s h i p i n t h i s
and o t h e r s t a t e s . And I a s k y o u i n c l o s i n g o n l y one t h i n g .
This
r i g h t t o v o t e i s a d i f f i c u l t one t o come by, n o t •enough o f y o u
e x e r c i s e i t . On Tuesday, i n a number o f s t a t e s y o u have t h a t
opportunity.
We c e r t a i n l y hope y o u ' l l do i t .
Thank y o u a l l v e r y
much.
END
.ETX
�17 REU 03-01-92 18:41 EST 176 Lines. Copyright 1992. A l l r i g h t s reserved.
BC-TEXT-CAMPAIGN/DEBATE-MULTITAKES
THE REUTER TRANSCRIPT REPORT
TEXT OF THE TELEVISED FORUM BETWEEN DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL
CANDIDATES SPONSORED BY THE MARYLAND DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND THE
UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND'S SCHOOL OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS
P a r t i c i p a n t s : Former C a l i f o r n i a governor Jerry Brown,
Arkansas Gov. B i l l C l i n t o n , Sen. Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) and former
Massachusetts senator Paul Tsongas
Sunday, March 1, 1992
Time: 6 p.m.
The e d i t o r of the report i s Steve Ginsburg. Tim Ahmann,
Eric Beech, Mary Gabriel, Peter Ramjug, and Paul Schomer also
are available t o help you. I f you have questions, please c a l l
202-898-8345. For service problems c a l l 1-800-435-0101.
This t r a n s c r i p t i s provided by News Transcripts, Inc. I f
questions of content a r i s e , c a l l 682-9050
MR. BOB BECKEL (Moderator): The f i r s t question i s f o r
Senator Tsongas. Could you come t o the mike, who's got the
uestion, and i d e n t i f y yourself, please.
QUESTION: Professor Schelling, the School of Public
A f f a i r s . Mr. Tsongas, by a l l accounts the inner c i t i e s of most
American metropolitan areas have deteriorated seriously, even
d i s a s t r o u s l y , during the past two or three decades. Do you have
any p o l i c i e s i n mind, any s p e c i f i c measures, not f o r economic
recovery i n general, but measures s p e c i f i c a l l y directed toward
helping American inner c i t i e s regain some of t h e i r e a r l i e r
vitality?
MR. TSONGAS: Let me say that I l i v e i n such a c i t y . I
l i v e i n Lowell, Massachusetts. We l o s t our t e x t i l e s and the
c i t y imploded, and I grew up during that decay. So I know
whereof you speak.
There are two things we have t o do. One, provide the
fundamentals i n terms of the programs necessary t o make these
c i t i e s v i a b l e . You t a l k about Head S t a r t , health care, a i d f o r
the homeless, that kind of t h i n g . But u l t i m a t e l y — a n d Baltimore
i s a good example--you have t o use the government t o leverage i n
p r i v a t e investment. A l l the federal money i n the world w i l l not
make i t possible t o bring back our c i t i e s unless you provide the
wherewithal f o r the p r i v a t e investment. That's what we d i d i n
�Lowell, that's what you d i d i n Baltimore.
So things l i k e the free enterprise zones, the UDAG
program, incentives t o give the p r i v a t e sector the incentive t o
come i n and invest i n the c i t i e s . That i s the only hope f o r
c i t i e s long-term. The Bush a d m i n i s t r a t i o n has no concern about
c i t i e s - - i t ' s not t h e i r constituency. We w i l l care, because
that's our constituency, and these c i t i e s have t o come back and
they w i l l come back.
respond?
MR. BECKEL: Gentlemen, i t ' s open, anybody l i k e t o
Governor Brown.
MR. BROWN: Yes, I t h i n k t h i s i s one of the weaknesses
i n Senator Tsongas's--former Senator Tsongas's plan, because i t
t a l k s about c a p i t a l gains breaks and things that might have some
e f f e c t on s t a r t i n g up businesses. But the problem i n t h i s
country i s there are m i l l i o n s and m i l l i o n s of poor people who've
f a l l e n completely below the safety net and need immediate help.
And I believe an enterprise zone i n 50 of the hardest pressed
areas, where businesses who would go there, locate, h i r e the
people there and be given a tax i n c e n t i v e , a tax break, f o r up
to 10 years would put economic development i n the p r i v a t e sector
r i g h t where i t i s n ' t now.
And, secondly, a welfare voucher wherein a person on
welfare could trade i n a welfare check t o the employer and use
that t o b u i l d on a salary and then be able t o keep the Medicaid
the foodstamps and other b e n e f i t s , and then reduce them over a
five-year period.
And then the t h i r d t h i n g , of course, i s some kind of
public service corps that would allow a public service entry
opportunity f o r a l o t of people that might not have another
choice.
The problem that's holding us back, I believe, you've
got too many people who are l i v i n g completely below the l i n e .
And i f we want t o have an America t h a t works, we have t o make
sure i t works f o r everyone. And t h i s country, more than f o r e i g n
aid, more than m i l i t a r y defense, more than anything else, ought
to make i t s fundamental commitment j u s t i c e , s o c i a l and economic
j u s t i c e , f o r every single American.
SENATOR HARKIN: Unless and u n t i l we get r i d of
supply-side, trickle-down economics, none of the things that
e i t h e r Mr. Brown or Mr. Tsongas has said are going t o work.
That's the f i r s t t h i n g we've got t o do--get r i d of trickle-down,
supply-side economics. You know, we take your taxes. We give
i t t o the few a t the top; we give i t t o the big corporations and
t r u s t them t o do what's r i g h t . Look what i t ' s done t o us. And
yet Mr. Tsongas preaches more of the same philosophy.
�What I say we have t o do i s to get jobs f o r people.
The best social program i s a good job, and that's true i n our
c i t i e s . That's why I've come up w i t h an economic plan next year
to put over a m i l l i o n people back t o work, and most of those
w i l l be i n our c i t i e s because I propose spending about $35
b i l l i o n out of the peace dividend. I t ' s time to q u i t spending
so much money i n Europe and Japan defending them from who knows
what. Bring i t home and invest i t i n our c i t i e s f o r a change:
$35 b i l l i o n .
I n every c i t y i n America, there are plans on the shelf
f o r streets and roads and bridges, school improvement programs,
sewer and water--no money t o fund i t .
I f we get that money down
there, that's going t o put people to work i n the c i t i e s . That's
going t o make our c i t i e s work b e t t e r , b u i l d the i n f r a s t r u c t u r e
of the c i t i e s . And then at the federal l e v e l , i f we j o i n i n
improving schools, by making the federal government more of a
partner i n our i n n e r - c i t y schools rather than j u s t leaving i t up
to property tax payers-Low-income housing that needs to be b u i l t and
r e h a b i l i t a t i o n i n our c i t i e s - - i t ' s a crying shame: we have more
abandoned apartments i n Washington, D.C. than we have homeless.
We ought to f i x them up. We need t o beautify our c i t i e s and
make our streets safe again, and I believe that's a federal
obligation.
GOVERNOR CLINTON: Bob, I released an urban p o l i c y
ere i n Maryland, i n Baltimore, w i t h Mayor Schmoke j u s t a few
days ago. I t focuses on three things: increasing economic
opportunity; g i v i n g people the power t o change t h e i r own l i v e s ,
and expecting them t o behave responsibly i n doing so; and
recreating a new sense of community i n our c i t i e s .
Let me j u s t give you some s p e c i f i c examples. One,
emulate the South Shore Development Bank which revolutionized
economic opportunity on the South Shore of Chicago i n every
major c i t y i n t h i s country. Two, create urban enterprise zones.
Restore i n modified fashion h i s t o r i c preservation tax c r e d i t .
Secondly, set up a housing program that i s modeled on
the things that work here i n Baltimore, l i k e the Nehemiah
partnerships. Do some of the things that Jack Kemp wants t o do
that George Bush won't fund. Emphasize less bureaucratic, more
innovative partnerships f o r low-income home ownership.
Third, take on the problem of crime and drugs i n the
c i t i e s . Do i t i n an aggressive way: drug treatment on demand;
more police f o r community p o l i c i n g ; more community-based boot
camps f o r people who shouldn't go t o prison but need t o be
reconnected t o our society.
Fourth, have a health care strategy that puts health
c l i n i c s i n inner c i t i e s and i n the schools. This i s the
�beginning of a strategy of urban renovation.
I have a long-term economic plan. I hope w e ' l l get t o
discuss i t .
But, very f r a n k l y , the best long-term economic
s t r a t e g i e s , unless we deal w i t h the t e r r i b l e social and economic
problems of the c i t i e s , w i l l not be successful. I spent too
much time i n i n n e r - c i t y schools not t o know that we have t o do
more s p e c i f i c a l l y directed toward the c i t i e s .
SENATOR HARKIN: I j u s t want to add again on the
school system: I want t o know where i n the c o n s t i t u t i o n i s i t
w r i t t e n that education has t o be funded on the backs of property
tax payers. You won't f i n d i t anywhere i n the c o n s t i t u t i o n of
the United States, and yet that's what happened.
I happen t o l i v e i n suburban V i r g i n i a . We have good
schools--a l o t of high-income people there. Five miles away,
the D i s t r i c t of Columbia, low income, low property taxes, low
schools. That's not f a i r and that's not r i g h t . I t ' s not r i g h t
i n Baltimore and not r i g h t i n any other c i t y i n America. And
that's why I've c a l l e d f o r the federal government, as a goal
w i t h i n the next 10 years, t o become more of a partner i n
elementary and secondary education.
I n 1980, the federal government provided about 10{
percent of the l o c a l school d i s t r i c t ' s budget. That's now down
to 5 percent. But we're going t o get that thing back up again
and make the federal government improve our schools i n our inner
cities.
The Reuter Transcript Report
P r e s i d e n t i a l Debate/Democrats
March 1, 1992
18 REU 03-01-92 18:42 EST 175 Lines.
BC-TEXT-CAMPAIGN/DEBATE-1S TADD
THE REUTER TRANSCRIPT REPORT
Copyright 1992. A l l r i g h t s reserved.
TEXT OF THE TELEVISED FORUM BETWEEN DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL
CANDIDATES SPONSORED BY THE MARYLAND DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND THE
UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND'S SCHOOL OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS
P a r t i c i p a n t s : Former C a l i f o r n i a governor Jerry Brown,
Arkansas Gov. B i l l C l i n t o n , Sen. Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) and former
Massachusetts senator Paul Tsongas
Sunday, March 1, 1992
( F i r s t Add)
xxx
inner c i t i e s .
�MR. BECKEL: Let me ask a question. Governor Brown,
you've been quite c r i t i c a l , among others, Senator Tsongas, about
bringing business back i n t o the Democratic Party. Do you
believe, as many do, that without the support of a t least part
of the business community, that the Democrats can win the White
House?
MR. B O N Well, business creates wealth. We want
RW:
business, of course. But we also want social j u s t i c e , and we
want trade union capacity t o survive and give workers the r i g h t
to own a piece of management through employee stock options and
to be able t o use the pension funds, which are the deferred
wages of workers. Get that working f o r American jobs. And
l e t ' s get some balance here so the National Labor Relations Act
r e a l l y works as a supportive arm to make sure that those who
wish t o be represented can do so and can enforce t h e i r
c o l l e c t i v e bargaining contracts.
So i t ' s a balance. Let's have a tax environment. And
that's why I support a f l a t tax and a value added of no more
than 13 percent, keep i t stable, don't change i t every two or
three years w i t h new l i t t l e l o l l i p o p s , f i r s t f o r the middle
class and then f o r business. No, keep i t s t r a i g h t , keep i t
clear, l e t business expense a l l t h e i r equipment the f i r s t year
at 100 percent, but keep i t balanced because the underlying
commitment of t h i s party i s t o social j u s t i c e , and without t h a t ,
nothing happens.
MR. BECKEL:
t a l k i n g about or--
Senator Tsongas, i s i t l o l l i p o p s
you're
MR. TSONGAS: Excuse me?
MR. BECKEL: When he said l o l l i p o p s , I assuming he was
meaning that—we've been hearing Santa Claus a l o t , so l o l l i p o p s
is a new i n t e r j e c t i o n i n t o t h i s debate.
MR. TSONGAS: I have always taken a strong a n t i l o l l i p o p stand my e n t i r e career.
(Laughter, applause)
I oppose Twinkie economics.
(Laughter)
This i s what we've been t a l k i n g a b o u t — t a s t e s great,
no n u t r i t i o n a l value.
Let me make a serious point. The New Hampshire
primary, I won among Democrats, that's known. When I got i n t o
the independents, the margin increased. And very few people
understand, I came i n t h i r d i n the Republican primary; 3600
Republicans who could have voted f o r t h e i r president or Pat
�Buchanan chose not t o . There are moderate Republicans out there
that w i l l come t o us i f we give them a home, who are moderate
and responsible on social issues, but want a Democratic Party
that have economic messages that make sense.
MR. BECKEL: Okay, can we have a quick response t o
that?
GOVERNOR CLINTON:
I'd l i k e t o respond t o t h a t .
MR. BECKEL: Go ahead, Governor Clinton.
(Laughter)
GOVERNOR CLINTON: I t h i n k that happened, but I think
i t ' s because people got the idea rather than the s p e c i f i c s . I
think we should be pro-business and pro-growth. The difference
between me and Senator Tsongas i s I am f o r targeted incentives.
Time magazine said I have the most s p e c i f i c economic program of
any candidate. I'm f o r an investment tax c r e d i t , I'm f o r a new
business tax c r e d i t , I'm f o r modifications i n the r e a l estate
investment r u l e s , I'm f o r indexing of c a p i t a l gains.
I am against an across-the-board cut i n the c a p i t a l
gains tax. We do not need the best president Wall Street ever
had. That's what Mr. Tsongas said he wanted t o be. We t r i p l e d
the stock market i n the 1980s, wages went down, the work week
got longer, our p r o d u c t i v i t y continued t o decline r e l a t i v e t o
our competitors. I'm not f o r g i v i n g anybody something f o r
nothing. He's been t a l k i n g about Santa Claus.
Look what happened t o General Motors. We cut the
c a p i t a l gains tax rate four times between '78 and '86. We got
nothing f o r i t . An across-the-board c a p i t a l gains tax cut f o r
investors i s a mistake. Let's put the money i n t o p u t t i n g our
people f i r s t and education and t r a i n i n g and developing a sense
of balance and progress together i n t h i s country.
MR. BECKEL:
Senator Harkin.
SENATOR HARKIN: I'm going t o respond t o t h i s . This
r e a l l y i s what i s happening i n t h i s primary. Mr. Tsongas has
j u s t l a i d out what we Democrats have t o decide. Are we going t o
be Democrats, are we going t o keep the heart and soul of our
party, or are we going t o t r y t o be more l i k e Republicans?
I n 1988, George Bush got elected w i t h 28 percent of
the e l i g i b l e vote i n America. Mike Dukakis got 25{ percent. Mr.
Tsongas says we have t o s e l l out our heart and soul t o get some
of those 28 percent t o vote f o r us. I say no. I say l e t ' s be
strong f o r the Democratic Party and our p r i n c i p l e s , l e t ' s bring
back some of those 28 percent t o vote f o r us? I say no. I say
�l e t ' s be strong f o r the Democratic Party and our p r i n c i p l e s .
Let's bring back some of those that voted f o r Reagan. Let's go
to those two out of four who didn't vote the l a s t time and give
them a reason t o j o i n the Democratic Party.
(Applause)
MR. BECKEL: Okay, we're going t o move on t o the next
section.
MR. BROWN: I want t o make one point on Senator
Tsongas.
MR. BECKEL: Yes, I know you do, and I'm going t o give
you a chance.
MR. BROWN: I t ' s about economics.
MR. BECKEL:
Can you do i t i n 10 seconds?
MR. BROWN: Yes. I want t o say that having read
t h i s " C a l l t o Arms,'' my objection i s that I don't see anything
i n there that's going t o help the large industries that have t o
compete w i t h Japan. You can spawn a l o t of new i n d u s t r i e s — a n d
we've done that i n C a l i f o r n i a i n a way that leads the world. The
problem i s when they get t o be a b i l l i o n - d o l l a r industry they
get run over by the bigger Japanese industry.
MR. BECKEL: Senator, I'm going t o stay on Greenwich
mean time. Go ahead, you give a response, Senator Tsongas.
MR. TSONGAS: I j u s t want t o establish a pattern. I've
answered every question--!*ve never mentioned anybody's name,
okay?
(Applause)
MR. BECKEL:
Do you want t o answer that?
SENATOR HARKIN: Yes.
MR. BECKEL: A l l r i g h t .
SENATOR HARKIN: Mr. Tsongas was the f i r s t one t o
attack me l a s t summer i n Boston, and don't you forget i t , Mr.
Tsongas.
GOVERNOR CLINTON:
That's r i g h t .
�MR. BECKEL: Okay, that's r i g h t .
SENATOR HARKIN:
No more of t h i s self-righteousness,
okay?
(Applause)
MR. BECKEL: I'm going t o t r y to attack t h i s program,
r i g h t ? A l l r i g h t , f o l k s , please. Now, l i s t e n , I warned you,
t h i s i s a short program. Please, give me a break here, w i l l
you?
The Reuter Transcript Report
P r e s i d e n t i a l Debate/Democrats ( f i r s t add)
March 1, 1992
19 REU 03-01-92 19:12 EST 236 Lines.
BC-TEXT-CAMPAIGN/DEBATE-2NDADD
THE REUTER TRANSCRIPT REPORT
Copyright 1992. A l l r i g h t s reserved.
TEXT OF THE TELEVISED FORUM BETWEEN DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL
CANDIDATES SPONSORED BY THE MARYLAND DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND THE
UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND'S SCHOOL OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS
P a r t i c i p a n t s : Former C a l i f o r n i a governor Jerry Brown,
rkansas Gov. B i l l C l i n t o n , Sen. Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) and former
ssachusetts senator Paul Tsongas
Sunday, March 1, 1992
(Second Add)
xxx
w i l l you?
MR. BECKEL (continues): Now, the next question i s
directed t o Governor C l i n t o n on health care.
Please i d e n t i f y yourself and ask your question.
QUESTION: H i , I'm Karen Haynes. I'm a master's
degree candidate a t the School of Public A f f a i r s .
I understand that each of you has espoused a proposal
that would improve American's access t o health care. But people
are also worried about the increased costs that they've seen.
So my question f o r you i s twofold. One, exactly who
i s going t o bear that brunt of the cost f o r the increased
access? And, two, by what means can you assure us that the
prices w i l l not continue t o escalate f o r medical care?
GOVERNOR CLINTON:
That's an excellent question.
�Unless we can c o n t r o l the cost of health care, w e ' l l never have
enough money i n t h i s budget t o invest i n America and our people
and t h e i r p r o d u c t i v i t y , and adjusting to the changes i n the
world; and American industry w i l l never be able to compete.
I t h i n k you have t o begin national health coverage
w i t h a cost c o n t r o l approach. Number one, mandate national
insurance reform--broad-based community r a t i n g , nobody can be
denied. That w i l l save you $35-50 b i l l i o n .
Number two, mandate
a basic primary and preventive acute and comprehensive care
package that has to be provided e i t h e r by employers or by the
government, w i t h c e n t r a l i z e d b i l l i n g t o k i l l the growth of the
paper h o s p i t a l t o release the health care bureaucracy.
Number three, give r e a l incentives f o r people t o j o i n
health care groups so that they'd stop the government from
micro-managing the health care process.
Those three things, i f properly done, w i l l save
between $80 and $120 b i l l i o n .
Then you plough that money back
i n t o providing a universal coverage package, and i n providing
long-term care f o r the e l d e r l y and the disabled.
Who w i l l s t i l l have t o pay? People who don't provide
any coverage a t a l l t o t h e i r employees now w i l l have t o pay
e i t h e r i n t o a government insurance program or a p r i v a t e one; but
i t w i l l be a much lower premium than now would be available to
them. And, secondly, people who would buy i n t o the long-term
care package who don't have access t o anything now would have t o
pay a small percentage of t h e i r income. But you'd begin w i t h
cost c o n t r o l s .
One f i n a l p o i n t — y o u have t o take on some of the
o l i g o p o l i s t i c high-cost items head on, l i k e drugs. Medicine has
gone up a t the three times the rate of i n f l a t i o n . You're j u s t
going t o have t o stop American drug companies from charging
Americans more than they charge people overseas f o r drugs that
are made i n t h i s country.
MR. BECKEL: Okay. Anybody l i k e to jump in?
SENATOR HARKIN: I ' d j u s t say on t h i s that I have an
8-point plan f o r n a t i o n a l health care. But the one thing that
Mr. C l i n t o n didn't mention: i f you want t o r e a l l y c o n t r o l
costs, you've got t o r e t h i n k health care i n America, that health
care i s not something you get j u s t when you get sick, but health
care i s something you get t o keep you healthy i n the f i r s t
place.
Once we do that and once we focus on preventative
health care, we w i l l save a l o t of money. I f we f u l l y fund
things l i k e maternal and c h i l d health care programs, WIC
programs, the immunization programs, childhood immunization, f o r
example — these are programs that come under my committee i n the
�Senate. Last year Bush didn't want to f u l l y fund the childhood
innnunization program. Well, we couldn't fund i t then. He said
i t cost too much.
I n Dallas, Texas l a s t year, we had an outbreak of
measles. I t cost you, the taxpayers, about $650,000 i n h o s p i t a l
costs f o r these kids that got measles, had to go to the
h o s p i t a l . For $9,000, we could have immunized every k i d i n
Dallas, Texas. But Bush says, no, we can't a f f o r d t h a t .
That's why I say we've got to focus on preventative
health care and keeping people healthy i n the f i r s t place.
That's why l a s t year I took $235 m i l l i o n out of George Bush's
budget f o r administrative costs and transferred i t i n t o the
preventative health care block grant f o r the states, to get that
preventative health care out there. I f we s t a r t doing t h a t , we
can c o n t r o l costs.
Secondly, we've got t o cut down on paper work.
Twenty-four cents of every d o l l a r f o r health care goes f o r
administrative costs. I n Canada, i t ' s only 11 cents. Third,
we've got to cut out of the waste. Last year, I caught Medicare
paying $700 f o r a foam mattress that only cost $29. Let's s t a r t
going a f t e r some of those and weeding those out.
MR. BROWN: The end r e a l i t y that I see i n t h i s whole
health care debate i s that t h i s i s a big business. I t ' s $800
b i l l i o n a year. They give $30 m i l l i o n every two years to
bi
^ ^ C o Congress to keep i t the way i t i s . For 25 years, the Democrats
^^Vha ve said i n t h e i r platform: we want health care. Harry Truman
^^^^
e a
said i t back i n 1949.
I t doesn't happen. I t doesn't happen because the
power of the medical lobbies, the insurance companies and the
equipment salesmen i s too much. And that's the point of t h i s
governing e l i t e that has f a i l e d . And u n t i l you challenge t h a t ,
the whole h e a l t h care debate i s empty and meaningless. And i f
you can challenge them, yes, c o n t r o l the greed w i t h a single
payer, put a l i d on costs, then you're i n a p o s i t i o n to cover
every single American, l i k e they do i n Canada. And then you're
i n a p o s i t i o n to emphasize occupational health, environmental
health, prevention, and ensure p r i v a t e choice of a d i v e r s i t y of
healing p r a c t i c e s .
That's the plan that I support. But I know u n t i l we
can break the stranglehold of those corrupt lobbies that l i v e
o f f the $1,000 donations and the p o l i t i c a l action committee
money, y o u ' l l never get anywhere. We'll be t a l k i n g about t h i s ,
assuming we're running again, i n another four years, and a f t e r
that.
So l e t ' s get t o the heart: i t ' s power and you have to
challenge t h a t power t o get t o anything good i n t h i s country.
�MR. BECKEL: I t ' s a long campaign as i t i s , Governor.
Go ahead, Senator Tsongas.
MR. TSONGAS: As you know, when I l e f t t h i s area back
i n 1984, I had cancer. And I survived because of the medical
care available here i n t h i s country.
I care very deeply that what was available f o r me
should be available f o r everyone. So when I got my group
together to do a plan, there are two mandates. One, i t ' s a
r i g h t f o r every American; and, two, don't bankrupt the country
while you're a t i t . And a f t e r f i v e months what we came up w i t h
was the endorsement of the idea of managed c o m p e t i t i o n — t h e same
place that Time Magazine, the New York Times and Business Week
have ended up--in which the government mandates the coverage.
But then you use the p r i v a t e sector to compete, t o bring down
costs.
Now there are two choices. One, government i s coste f f i c i e n t and can do t h i s e f f i c i e n t l y . I f you believe t h a t , we
have counseling outside f o r you. The other approach i s have the
private sector compete head on head so that you have an
incentive t o get the best doctors, the best h o s p i t a l s , the most
e f f i c i e n t care.
Then we have t o do three things on the government
side. One, change malpractice laws so that doctors do not
practice defensive medicine. Two, c e n t r a l i z e reporting t o cut
down bureaucracy. And three, as Tom pointed out, preventive
c a r e — i t ' s the c r i t i c a l component.
MR. BECKEL: Okay.
Governor Clinton, do you want t o
respond?
GOVERNOR CLINTON:
I j u s t want 10 or 15 seconds. I
think we're a l l moving t o the same place on t h i s . I wanted t o
emphasize one t h i n g that Senator Harkin and Senator Tsongas
pointed out about preventive and primary care. You must provide
access t o those services where people l i v e . We have rationed
preventive and primary care i n America, not expensive care.
We can a f f o r d f o r everybody t o have the care Senator
Tsongas had i f we put health c l i n i c s i n inner c i t i e s and r u r a l
areas and more health education and health services i n schools
and i n workplaces. You have got t o take i t to people where they
l i v e i f you r e a l l y want t o save money.
MR. BECKEL: One l a s t — g o ahead.
MR. BROWN: I t h i n k i f you t h i n k that the insurance
companies are going t o somehow make t h i s easy, you also need
counseling.
�(Laughter)
Look, I don't believe health care i s a commodity. I
believe i t ' s a r i g h t of every American, and we ought to have a
community that cares, we ought t o a l l be on the same boat, and
w e ' l l make sure that that health care i s extended to a l l of us.
The problem i s that there i s p r o f i t e e r i n g , there i s greed.
That's what has t o be c o n t r o l l e d , not the service.
MR. BECKEL: Senator Harkin, do you want t o respond?
You don't want counseling, I assume, on a l l t h i s .
SENATOR HARKIN: I t h i n k w e l l of counseling and
everything. A l o t of l i t t l e quips going around. But anyway,
you know, we have to have some d r a s t i c changes i n the way we
think about health care i n t h i s country.
I mentioned one--we ought to have health care t o keep
you healthy i n the f i r s t place. Secondly, we have t o break out
of t h i s mold of t h i n k i n g of t h i s fee f o r service. I f we
continue a fee-for-service program i n America, I'm sorry, you're
not going t o get away from i t . And that's again the d i r e c t i o n
that Mr. Tsongas i s taking, going down that fee f o r service.
I ' l l t e l l you t h i s . George Bush, the president of the
United States, goes out t o Bethesda Naval Hospital and gets
great health care. No one there gets fee f o r service. They're
a l l s a l a r i e d . And I say what's good enough f o r George Herbert
Walker Bush i s good enough f o r the working people of America.
(Applause)
got
MR. BECKEL: Very q u i c k l y , both of you, and then I've
a question f o r you.
GOVERNOR CLINTON: Go ahead.
t h i s , so l e t Paul--
We're going to agree on
MR. TSONGAS: I hate t o agree, but B i l l C l i n t o n and I
are t o t a l l y i n agreement that our plan, which i s s i m i l a r , i s not
fee f o r service. What we do i s , you have an H O which provides
M
health care f o r a group. I t i s i n the i n t e r e s t of that H O t o
M
be c o s t - e f f i c i e n t . I t i s not fee f o r service.
MR. BECKEL:
Okay, go ahead.
GOVERNOR CLINTON: The only other thing I would say
i s , i f you look a t the p r o d u c t i v i t y problems i n America, one of
the biggest ones i s i n health care. So i t ' s not j u s t a system
of finance, i t ' s how you reorganize the health care workplace t o
push now preventive and primary care, to make i t less
bureaucratic. And there i s more than one way t o do t h a t .
�I studied t h i s f o r a year, set up a governor's task
force. The arguments we're having are not the real arguments.
You got t o cover everybody, and you've got t o have a primary and
preventive care package. Then the question i s how do you
c o n t r o l costs by constantly reorganizing the workplace and
taking out the fee-for-service incentive? I agree w i t h Senator
Harkin, but we can do i t i n our plan.
The Reuter Transcript Report
P r e s i d e n t i a l Debate/Democrats (second add)
March 1, 1992
20 REU 03-01-92 19:15 EST 256 Lines. Copyright 1992. A l l r i g h t s reserved.
BC-TEXT-CAMPAIGN/DEBATE-3RDADD
THE REUTER TRANSCRIPT REPORT
TEXT OF THE TELEVISED FORUM BETWEEN DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL
CANDIDATES SPONSORED BY THE MARYLAND DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND THE
UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND'S SCHOOL OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS
P a r t i c i p a n t s : Former C a l i f o r n i a governor Jerry Brown,
Arkansas Gov. B i l l C l i n t o n , Sen. Tom Harkin (D-Iowa), and former
Massachusetts senator Paul Tsongas
Sunday, March 1, 1992
(Third Add)
xxx
our plan.
MR. BECKEL: Gentlemen, l e t me ask you each a
question, and i f you could please keep your answers as short as
possible. To t r y t o stem the horror of the growing numbers of
AIDS victims i n t h i s country, there have been proposals, among
them t o d i s t r i b u t e f r e e l y i n public schools condoms and t o give
to drug addicts clean needles on demand. Do you agree w i t h one
or both of those proposals? Anybody want to take i t f i r s t ? I
don't want t o t r y t o pick i t out.
(Laughter)
GOVERNOR CLINTON:
I ' l l do i t .
SENATOR HARKIN: I want to t e l l you t h i s r i g h t now.
I've got two daughters i n public schools, one daughter i n high
school and one daughter i n grade school. And I ' l l t e l l you t h i s
r i g h t now. I don't want some government o f f i c i a l standing
outside the school handing out condoms to my daughters when they
get out of school. Period.
(Applause)
�That's something that ought t o be l e f t on the l o c a l
l e v e l . I f the l o c a l school board, l o c a l school d i s t r i c t — t h a t ' s
up t o them, but I don't t h i n k the federal government ought t o be
mandating that someone stand outside the school handing out
condoms t o people.
MR. BECKEL: Governor Clinton.
GOVERNOR CLINTON: I don't think the federal
government should be mandating i t , but I l i v e i n a state where
we have been on the c u t t i n g edge of p u t t i n g health services i n
the schools, a n t i - t e e n pregnancy, anti-AIDS e f f o r t s , and we l e t
every l o c a l school d i s t r i c t make the decision. And i f they
decide, a f t e r consultation w i t h community and r e l i g i o u s leaders,
to d i s t r i b u t e condoms, we support them and I think we should.
(Applause)
This i s l i f e and death. This i s l i f e and death. And
l e t me also say, there are a l o t of things I don't know the
answer t o , and I don't know how I f e e l about the clean needles
issue. But I t h i n k I favor l i f e , but I know how I f e e l about
that.
Now, the f i n a l thing I want t o say i s , we have two
excellent reports from t h i s AIDS Commission. The president
never mentioned AIDS u n t i l Magic Johnson had the guts t o come
forward. We have got t o implement what we know. We know what
to do. We know how t o improve treatment, we know we've got t o
broaden the CDC d e f i n i t i o n s t o include more women and IV drug
users i n the research on treatment. And l e t ' s j u s t implement
what we've got and go a f t e r i t and take t h i s issue out i n the
open and t a l k about i t and f i g h t i t .
MR. BECKEL: A l l r i g h t , Governor Brown and then
Senator Tsongas.
MR. BROWN: I wear t h i s red ribbon t o signal
s o l i d a r i t y w i t h the people that are dying of AIDS and the
s u f f e r i n g of t h e i r f a m i l i e s . And I want everyone i n the
p r e s i d e n t i a l campaign t o make i t very clear that t h i s i s a
scourge, a plague that can d e v a s t a t e — i t i s devastating the
people a f f e c t e d , but i t ' s going t o grow and grow unless we take
every measure—prevention, research, caring f o r those who are so
afflicted.
And yeah, you get down t o the hardcore issues, you
know, l i k e i t ' s sexually transmitted, condoms can block t h a t .
I'm not saying we should shove t h i s down the throat of l o c a l
people, but the president, I haven't heard him stand up and
address the issue.
Sure, abstinence i s absolutely 100 percent safe, but
�condoms ought t o be out there, too. And safe needles--yeah, i t
can promote drug use, but i t also can save l i v e s . So l e t ' s t a l k
about i t . Let's not punish those l o c a l groups who are w i l l i n g
to step forward and make these devices available that w i l l save
lives.
And I don't even hear the president t a l k i n g about i t ,
because sex, or something, that you want t o appeal t o one group
i n the society that j u s t wants i t t o go away. I t ' s not going
away, and t o n i g h t young c h i l d r e n - (Laughter)
--young c h i l d r e n are dying because they're not g e t t i n g
the leadership of our p o l i t i c i a n s .
MR. BECKEL:
Senator Tsongas, do you have a response?
MR. TSONGAS: President Reagan made his l i v i n g by
speaking. He never got the word AIDS out of his mouth i n eight
years, and America paid the price f o r t h a t . George Bush i s j u s t
marginally b e t t e r . A Democratic president has t o put AIDS at
the f r o n t , have an AIDS czar, and d e a l - - I support both. I f the
l o c a l communities, they have t o do i t .
Let me r a i s e one other dimension of t h i s issue. I
spent two years, I t h i n k some of you know, i n the Peace Corps i n
Ethiopia. A f r i c a i s being devastated by AIDS, not j u s t the
United States, but the whole continent i s under t h r e a t . So our
eed t o get a handle on t h i s issue and f i n d a cure and some way
'to deal w i t h i t i s not only important f o r the United States, but
there are l i t e r a l l y countries that are facing genocide because
of t h i s scourge that we have a r e s p o n s i b i l i t y t o as w e l l . The
dimension goes f a r beyond the United States, and I think the
Reagan-Bush record of avoidance on t h i s issue i s devastating.
MR. BECKEL: Okay, l e t me move on t o another issue.
(Applause)
Folks, please, we've got l i m i t e d time. Let's move on
to the issue of c i v i l r i g h t s and c i v i l l i b e r t i e s ? You have a
question?
QUESTION: Yes, my name i s Maxine Isaacs, I'm a
doctoral student i n the School of Public A f f a i r s . Governor
Brown, please describe f o r us i n some d e t a i l the one personal
experience that most s i g n i f i c a n t l y influenced your t h i n k i n g on
the issues of c i v i l r i g h t s and c i v i l l i b e r t i e s .
MR. BROWN: Being i n the middle of the Watts r i o t when
my f a t h e r was governor of C a l i f o r n i a and going i n t o a church i n
Venice, C a l i f o r n i a , and being screamed and y e l l e d a t i n a way
that I'd never experienced, and seeing the f r u s t r a t i o n , the
�rage, j u s t the suppressed fury that was coming out at that
h i s t o r i c moment i n C a l i f o r n i a and the l i f e of t h i s country.
saw there a r e a l i t y that I knew j u s t had to be dealt w i t h .
MR.
I
BECKEL: Anyone else want to jump i n here, please?
MR. TSONGAS: I l i v e d , as I said e a r l i e r , f o r two
years i n Ethiopia. And i t was a very emotional experience f o r
me--and I t h i n k a l o t of you have heard me say i t was the best
years of my l i f e . And when I was leaving Ethiopia, my students
had a party f o r me. And during the discussion we were r e f e r r i n g
to an American Peace Corps volunteer who was black, who had l e f t
e a r l i e r . And i n the warmth of the moment the students said to
me that I was t h e i r f r i e n d , but he was t h e i r brother.
And i t was the f i r s t time that I had r e a l l y come to
grips w i t h and been exposed to the idea that there are d i v i s i o n s
that have to be healed, that you r e a l l y have to take t h i s
seriously, that i f we're going to be one nation healed, united,
that t h i s sense of separateness has t o be destroyed. I t has to
be ( u n i n t e l l i g i b l e ) and be proud of i t .
But I t h i n k the a d m i n i s t r a t i o n that we have now t r e a t s
i t so c a v a l i e r l y . We have to work at healing; i t has to be
something you take seriously. I n even the most p o s i t i v e
s i t u a t i o n s , there's s t i l l t h i s question: Are we, are we not,
brothers and sisters? And an American president has an enormous
r e s p o n s i b i l i t y to bring t h i s healing together.
MR.
BECKEL: Governor.
GOVERNOR CLINTON: When I was a small boy I l i v e d w i t h
my grandparents i n a l i t t l e community i n southwest Arkansas,
which had a very large black population. And my grandfather had
a store i n the predominantly black area of town. So I learned
as a c h i l d — a n d I made friends w i t h children who couldn't go to
school w i t h me; I made f r i e n d s w i t h c h i l d r e n who l i v e d i n a part
of town where t h e i r streets weren't paved and they didn't have
indoor t o i l e t s . And i t made a profound impression on me j u s t
because i t was a part of my l i f e , and I had a grandfather, thank
God, who even though he had a f o u r t h grade education, taught me
that i t was wrong.
Many years l a t e r , when I was 17, I came here to
College Park to the American Legion Boys Nation program. There
were four blacks of the hundred boys i n t h i s mock senate
program. They and two guys from Louisiana and I were the only
ones who voted f o r every c i v i l r i g h t s b i l l that we had. One of
the guys from Louisiana went t o Georgetown w i t h me; the other i s
a s o c i a l l y a c t i v e J e s u i t p r i e s t today.
I t was my childhood and my grandparents and my
�personal acquaintance from early l i f e w i t h black Americans that
gave me my deep hatred of racism and commitment t o equal r i g h t s
for a l l people.
MR. BECKEL:
Senator Harkin?
SENATOR HARKIN: Two i n c i d e n t s , one domestic, one
f o r e i g n . The domestic one, I went t o Iowa State University and
found that black students couldn't f i n d housing o f f campus, and
we formed a group c a l l e d the Student Committee on Racial
Equality t o break down the housing b a r r i e r s against black
students i n Ames, Iowa, at Iowa State University. That was my
f i r s t exposure t o what I c a l l the embedded racism, according t o
the laws that we had a t the time and the housing codes.
The second was when I was a s t a f f aide i n the Congress
and I traveled t o Vietnam and uncovered something which was
called the t i g e r cages i n Vietnam i n 1970, and found that our
government was paying and providing f o r these t i g e r cages t o put
p o l i t i c a l prisoners i n on an island o f f the coast of Vietnam.
Hundreds of men, women, c h i l d r e n stuck i n these cages i n inhuman
conditions, being t o r t u r e d d a i l y .
And when I saw that I thought what i s our government
standing for? We ought t o stand f o r human r i g h t s and c i v i l
l i b e r t i e s a l l over the world, and here we were behind the t i g e r
cages. When we l e f t Vietnam I exposed the t i g e r cages, l o s t my
ob i n Congress; i n f a c t , one congressman said I'd never work
'again i n Congress. Well, here I am.
But I was w i l l i n g t o do that because I f e l t that I had
a duty t o those 500 human beings cramped i n those t i g e r cages,
and that's what l e d me i n 1975, as a freshman congressman, t o
introduce the f i r s t human r i g h t s amendment passed by the
Congress t o condition our f o r e i g n a i d on the observance of human
r i g h t s around the world.
So I've got a long h i s t o r y i n t h a t . And that incident
w i t h the t i g e r cages has affected me very, very deeply.
m
GOVERNOR CLINTON:
Could I say something on behalf of
a l l of us?
MR. BECKEL:
Sure.
GOVERNOR CLINTON: You've j u s t heard something-QUESTION: Could I say something f i r s t ?
GOVERNOR CLINTON: Yes.
QUESTION: There i s a p o l i t i c a l prisoner i n the United
�States, and that's Lyndon LaRouche.
(Shouts)
W i l l the panel here, w i l l the candidates-MR. BECKEL: You know, f r i e n d , I'm going t o give you
about one second t o get away from t h i s so I can get back to t h i s
show; i t ' s not your show, i t ' s t h e i r s . You're causing a
d i s r u p t i o n , and i f you c o n t i n u e — i f you continue t h i s
d i s r u p t i o n , the police o f f i c e r w i l l ask you t o leave the
b u i l d i n g , and i f you f a i l to leave the o f f i c e r w i l l arrest you.
QUESTION:
(Inaudible).
MR. BECKEL: Would you please shut up.
(Applause)
Thank you.
MR. TSONGAS: Bob, can we establish ground rules here?
You're not supposed t o get more applause than we are.
(Laughter)
MR. BECKEL: You d i d p r e t t y w e l l on l o l l i p o p s .
Go
ahead.
The Reuter Transcript Report
P r e s i d e n t i a l Debate/Democrats ( t h i r d add)
March 1, 1992
21 REU 03-01-92 19:43 EST 244 Lines.
BC-TEXT-CAMPAIGN/DEBATE-4THADD
THE REUTER TRANSCRIPT REPORT
Copyright 1992.
A l l r i g h t s reserved.
TEXT OF THE TELEVISED FORUM BETWEEN DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL
CANDIDATES SPONSORED BY THE MARYLAND DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND THE
UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND'S SCHOOL OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS
P a r t i c i p a n t s : Former C a l i f o r n i a governor Jerry Brown,
Arkansas Gov. B i l l C l i n t o n , Sen. Tom Harkin (D-Iowa), and former
Massachusetts senator Paul Tsongas
Sunday, March 1, 1992
(Fourth Add)
x x x Go ahead.
GOVERNOR CLINTON:
behalf of a l l these people.
I j u s t want to make a point here i n
I j u s t heard three moving s t o r i e s .
�not a l l of which I had ever heard before, from these other three
people. Now, l a s t week Pat Buchanan went to the South and
v i s i t e d a Confederate cemetery and would not walk across the
street t o v i s i t the black cemetery across the s t r e e t . He made a
very pointed message of i t . And George Bush has not called him
on i t yet because he wants to play the race card against us.
And I'm t e l l i n g you, the Democrats are not going to
l e t him do t h a t . We're going up or down together, and I was
very-(Sustained cheers, applause)
QUESTION: I can understand your applause,
p a r t i c u l a r l y on that answer. I've got one f a s t follow-up.
A l l of you have challenged the W i l l i e Horton ad of
1988 as t r y i n g to d i v i d e black against white i n t h i s country f o r
purposes of the e l e c t i o n . Do each of you, or do any of you
believe that the Republican Party i s pursuing purely r a c i s t
acts — r a c i s t acts — to elect the president?
Is the Republican Party pursuing r a c i s t acts?
SENATOR HARKIN: Not the party i t s e l f , but leaders i n
the party are.
I believe that George Bush has taken the party of
Abraham Lincoln and turned i t i n t o the party of David Duke. And
he's g e t t i n g the assistance of Pat Buchanan to do i t .
Look at our policy on H a i t i a n refugees r i g h t now.
Here's George Bush t e l l i n g the B r i t i s h that they shouldn't take
the Vietnamese back from Hong Kong, back to Vietnam. And yet
look what he's doing to the H a i t i a n refugees.
I t e l l you i t ' s a r a c i s t act, and i t ' s a b l i g h t on our
moral conscience.
(Applause)
MR. BROWN: The r a c i a l ads, that's one t h i n g , the
W i l l i e Horton ad. But the sorry, hard t r u t h i s that every year
blacks i n t h i s country, along w i t h other people close to the
economic poverty l i n e , are going down.
We're e x i l i n g tens of m i l l i o n s of people i n t h i s
country. And, yeah, racism i s i n t h e r e — n o question about i t .
But there i s a d e l i b e r a t e e f f o r t every year to increase the
ranks of the impoverished which i n e v i t a b l y leads to crime, which
leads to fear, which leads to the demands to erode c i v i l
l i b e r t i e s , more p o l i c e , more invasion, more wiretapping, and the
whole change i n the character of our American society.
And, u n f o r t u n a t e l y , I have to say that the incumbent
party, both p a r t i e s , have not yet stood up to the plate and
said, W a i t a minute here. Our country i s about j u s t i c e , about
a l l people being created equal and having the means t o r e a l i z e
vv
�t h a t . And i f every year f o r a decade people have been s l i p p i n g
back, not by the thousands but by the m i l l i o n s , there's
something wrong w i t h the whole p o l i t i c a l culture and climate.''
And that's the basis of my c r i t i q u e of what's wrong
with p o l i t i c s .
MR. BECKEL: A l l r i g h t . Can I ask both Senator
Tsongas and Governor C l i n t o n t o respond t o that? Then we're
going t o move on.
MR. TSONGAS: Even my 10-year old daughter can t e l l
you that George Bush and the Republicans have one strategy:
divide and r u l e . They look a t the c i t i e s , they look a t
m i n o r i t i e s and they say, "'Not our people. The h e l l w i t h them.
We're going t o go a f t e r the suburbs and other areas.''
I t ' s a very clear approach. Divide i t . Get more than
h a l f , and you're the president.
And that's why I t h i n k what we o f f e r i s something
d i f f e r e n t — h e a l i n g . H e a l i n g — t h i s country i s desperately i n
need of t h a t , and we're going t o give i t t o them.
QUESTION:
Do you believe, though, i t i s racism?
MR. TSONGAS: I sure do; I sure do.
GOVERNOR CLINTON: Let me give you one example. Look
at the speech Vice President Quayle made i n New York, and look
what Governor Cuomo said about i t , and others.
He goes up there and t a l k s about welfare reform.
That's something that's very close t o my heart. I t ought t o be
an act of l i b e r a t i o n i n our country f o r someone who i s on public
assistance, who hates i t , t o get education and t r a i n i n g and help
for t h e i r kids and then move i n t o the workplace; or f o r a l l the
working people who are poor t o get an earned income tax c r e d i t
to l i f t themselves out of poverty.
So what does Bush say?
I ' m going t o l e t the states
have more f l e x i b i l i t y . ' ' And Quayle goes up there and makes
some speech about i t .
What have they r e a l l y done? You look a t i t . Every
state that i s working t o l i b e r a t e poor people from welfare and
has been successful a t i t has had t h e i r grants from the federal
government cut back because these people don't want t o do
anything about people on welfare. They want a p o l i t i c a l issue
i n the f a l l .
vv
MR. BECKEL: Now we move on. The next question w i l l
be on the environment. Yes, ma'am?
�QUESTION: Good evening. I'm Vanessa Braden from the
School of Public A f f a i r s and my question i s on the environment.
Sometimes there's a c o n f l i c t between an endangered
species such as the northern spotted owl and jobs. As
president, how would you resolve these c o n f l i c t s ? And,
s p e c i f i c a l l y , do you t h i n k the Endangered Species Act should be
relaxed i n favor of jobs, Senator Harkin?
SENATOR HARKIN: No, I do not believe i t should be
relaxed. We have the provisions i n the law that would provide
f o r a balance, f o r i n t e r e s t s to protect the environment, t o
protect endangered species and to protect jobs.
I t h i n k i t ' s short-sighted to say that somehow that we
lose jobs i f we protect the environment. That's not t r u e , not
true at a l l . We have to f i n d d i f f e r e n t ways of providing work
f o r people.
But we j u s t can't permit the environment to be
degraded. And on the Endangered Species Act, there i s a
provision i n the law that allows t h i s sort of p u l l i n g together,
the so-called God Squad as they c a l l i t , to make these
decisions, to balance these i n t e r e s t s .
On a broader context, though, on the environment and
jobs, l e t me j u s t say that we have to move ahead i n t h i s country
towards what I c a l l s u s t a i n a b i l i t y . And as president, I would
be promoting r e c y c l i n g , and that promotes jobs. There are more
eople now working recycling aluminum cans than there are
orking making aluminum cans. So i t cleans up the environment.
Use more n a t u r a l gas. Quit importing so much o i l i n t o
t h i s country. Let's have energy e f f i c i e n c y and l e t ' s have
renewable energy sources i n t h i s country.
And, again, that's one place where I and others have
disagreed w i t h Senator Tsongas who wants to b u i l d more nuclear
power plants. I do not believe we need to b u i l d more nuclear
power plants. And as president, I would not b u i l d more nuclear
power plants. I would put t h i s country on a path of renewable
energy, energy e f f i c i e n c y and r e c y c l i n g , to produce the kind of
energy that we need f o r the f u t u r e .
MR. BROWN: I'm w a i t i n g f o r Mr. Tsongas.
has something to say to t h a t .
I know he
MR. TSONGAS: I'm used to going i n order, so I'm at
somewhat of a disadvantage.
Let me say I've had a l o t of experience w i t h the issue
that you r a i s e . As you know, I c a r r i e d the Alaska Lands B i l l
through the Senate. I t was the conservation vote of the
century. And that's part of the reason why the environmental
community i n Maryland has endorsed. I'm very proud of t h a t .
�We had mining i n t e r e s t s , we had timber i n t e r e s t s , we
had o i l i n t e r e s t s , we had hunting i n t e r e s t s , we had f i s h i n g
i n t e r e s t s i n the environment.
I t was a bloodbath. But we ended
up w i t h a b i l l that was reasonable, and now everybody, except
for a few people i n the o i l industry, are happy w i t h i t .
I had the same issue i n Cape Cod. This was a f t e r I
l e f t the Senate. When you had developers and those who wanted
to preserve Cape Cod who were i n t h i s b a t t l e , very much l i k e the
Bay here. I t ' s going t o have t o be dealt w i t h . And what
happened was, we c a l l e d f o r a moratorium on construction t o get
the a t t e n t i o n of developers, and we ended up w i t h the Cape Cod
Planning Commission. So now there's some r a t i o n a l i t y i n the
planning.
I would not undercut the Endangered Species Act. This
earth i s a guardianship. I t ' s not j u s t today and tomorrow; i t ' s
here forever, and our generation has a r e s p o n s i b i l i t y t o keep i t
intact.
MR. BROWN: The environment and jobs, f a r from being
incompatible, they go together. We're i n e x t r i c a b l y linked t o
nature. We're a part of nature and we respect i t and we
reverence i t and we survive.
Sure, p r o t e c t and preserve the Endangered Species Act.
But when these b a t t l e s come up t o , f o r example, phase out
nuclear power, that inspires tremendous economic opposition.
jWhen I stopped the f i r s t nuclear power plant i n C a l i f o r n i a , I
mean, they screamed, they y e l l e d , they said we're going t o have
a brownout. That's the name they gave f o r the l i g h t s when they
were supposed t o go out. Well, they d i d n ' t , they d i d n ' t .
C a l i f o r n i a now generates enough e l e c t r i c i t y f o r 4 m i l l i o n
people—from solar, from biomass, from wind and geothermal.
The p o s s i b i l i t i e s are there, but unless you're
prepared t o stand up t o very powerful i n t e r e s t s , nothing i s
going t o happen.
This planet i s being turned i n t o a s t i n k i n g junkyard.
P r o f i t and greed are destroying the very basis of l i f e . And t o
stand up t o that takes f i g h t i n g the p o l i t i c s and business as
usual, i t takes committing t o phase out nuclear power,
connnitting t o energy e f f i c i e n c y , and r e a l l y investing i n the
renewables t h a t w i l l sustain us and provide the model f o r these
other countries of the world, l i k e China, that w i l l devastate
everything we're doing unless they pick up on clean, cheaper
technologies that are invented i n the developed world.
That's a challenge that i s economic and i t ' s
environmental and i t ' s s u r v i v a l .
MR. BECKEL: Governor C l i n t o n , i f you have a response,
then I have a question f o r the panel. Please.
�GOVERNOR CLINTON: Very b r i e f l y , the Washington issue
of the spotted owl i s more involved i n that Washington has
overcut; they've cut more trees than they've harvested f o r
several years. A l o t of the problem i s w i t h old growth forests
which contain trees which may be very c r i t i c a l to our future
medical research.
The governor of Washington, Booth Gardner, has l a i d
out a very good t r a n s i t i o n a l economic plan which I t h i n k ought
to be embraced and supported by the United States government. I
do not believe the Endangered Species Act should be repealed. I
think the decisions ought t o be made under i t based on science
and not on p o l i t i c s , and I think we ought to stay w i t h i t .
That i s one example of the b i g issue. One of the b i g
questions we have t o resolve i n t h i s e l e c t i o n i s whether we
r e a l l y believe, as the vice president's Council on
Competitiveness says, that environmental protection and economic
growth are incompatible. I believe they are c r i t i c a l l y
compatible and must go hand i n hand.
Let me j u s t give you one s p e c i f i c example. As we go
down from a defense t o a domestic economy, as we reduce the
defense budget, how are we going to create jobs f o r a l l those
s c i e n t i s t s , engineers and factory workers? One thing we're
going t o do i s put more money i n t o environmental research,
environmental cleanup, more r e c y c l i n g , waste reduction. A l l
these environmental things can be a great source of economic
strength t o us i f we hold f a s t t o n a t i o n a l standards and don't
put states and regions p i t t e d against one another.
The Reuter Transcript Report
P r e s i d e n t i a l Debate/Democrats ( f o u r t h add)
March 1, 1992
22 REU 03-01-92 19:45 EST 235 Lines.
BC-TEXT-CAMPAIGN/DEBATE-5THADD
THE REUTER TRANSCRIPT REPORT
Copyright 1992. A l l r i g h t s reserved.
TEXT OF THE TELEVISED FORUM BETWEEN DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL
CANDIDATES SPONSORED BY THE MARYLAND DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND THE
UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND'S SCHOOL OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS
P a r t i c i p a n t s : Former C a l i f o r n i a governor Jerry Brown,
Arkansas Gov. B i l l C l i n t o n , Sen. Tom Harkin (D-Iowa), and former
Massachusetts senator Paul Tsongas
Sunday, March 1, 1992
( F i f t h Add)
�xxx
one another.
SENATOR HARKIN: You know, Mr. Clinton, that was a
very nice flowery l i t t l e speech, but we have t o s t a r t reading
the records and not reading our l i p s , my f r i e n d s . The f a c t i s
that Arkansas has been rated l a s t i n environmental p o l i c y .
Newsweek magazine j u s t a l i t t l e over a month ago said that the
Environmental Protection Agency i n Arkansas was a joke--quote, a
joke--and said i t was loaded w i t h representatives of the biggest
p o l l u t e r s i n the state of Arkansas.
GOVERNOR CLINTON: Do I get t o - SENATOR HARKIN: So now again, you know, we can a l l
have t h i s nice flowery speeches, but don't read our l i p s , read
our record. That's what I ask you t o do.
MR. BECKEL: Okay, go ahead, Governor Clinton.
GOVERNOR CLINTON: Well, read the r e s u l t s . There are
four states i n t h i s country i n compliance w i t h the Clean A i r
Act.
One i s Arkansas. There were three states who complied
w i t h the Community Safe Drinking Water Act early. One was
Arkansas. There was one state that was f i r s t recognized by the
EPA under Carter's a d m i n i s t r a t i o n , when I was governor, t o run
ts own hazardous waste program--Arkansas.
We have had cleaner water, cleaner a i r , tougher
enforcement under my governorship. Look a t the record. I don't
know who t h a t was who wrote i t i n Newsweek, and I can't defend
the issue. I ' l l t e l l you what. I d i d pass a law t o reduce the
influence of the people who p o l l u t e the environment on the
P o l l u t i o n Control Commission. That was passed 20 years ago, and
now non-polluters have a m a j o r i t y on that commission f o r the
f i r s t time because of a law I passed.
So look at the record, not the r h e t o r i c .
(Applause)
MR. BECKEL: Folks, please.
MR. BROWN: Okay, t h i s only takes 10 seconds. Okay,
he talked about the record: C l i n t o n Trumpets Environmentalism
as Arkansas Ratings H i t Sour Notes. Breaks Help Corporate
P o l l u t e r s . And C l i n t o n Defends Clearcutting--the very way of
logging which i s going t o k i l l the spotted owl. So-GOVERNOR CLINTON: Are you going t o l e t me-(Laughter)
�MR. BROWN: Let me give you some documentary-(Applause)
GOVERNOR CLINTON: Can I answer--wait, you've got t o
l e t me answer-MR. BECKEL: Yes, you can. And then, Senator Tsongas.
And then I'd l i k e you a l l t o answer questions from me, please.
GOVERNOR CLINTON: This i s an example of sort of
p o l i t i c a l chicanery. I came out f o r a plan t o dramatically
reduce c l e a r c u t t i n g i n our national f o r e s t s , something that I
had no c o n t r o l over, i t was a l l f e d e r a l . Before any member of
Congress i n my state ever opened his mouth, I said we have t o
reduce c l e a r c u t t i n g . What t h i s means i s that I endorsed the
best plan we could get at the time, which l e f t some c l e a r c u t t i n g
i n , but d r a s t i c a l l y reduced i t by more than 60 percent.
Now, that headline doesn't t e l l you t h a t , does i t ?
MR. BECKEL: Okay, Senator Tsongas, d i d you want t o
say something?
GOVERNOR CLINTON: Wait a minute. Whoa!
(Laughter)
This refers t o the f a c t that I gave an investment tax
r e d i t t o our timber companies and our paper producers t o
'reinvest i n our s t a t e , which i s why we created jobs a t 10 times
the n a t i o n a l average of the manufacturing sector i n the 1980s.
And what i t doesn't say i s these p o l l u t e r s are now emitting
d i o x i n i n t o the water stream i n Arkansas a t less than one-half
the rate provided f o r by the EPA today.
So you can't t e l l by newspaper headlines and by these
fellows that are behind i n the p o l l s . Look a t the f a c t s .
(Applause)
MR. BECKEL: Folks, please.
Please.
MR. BROWN: Hey, wait a minute. Every major--wait-every major environmental organization says Arkansas i s an
environmental disaster.
SENATOR HARKIN:
That's r i g h t .
MR. BROWN: And that i s the f a c t .
GOVERNOR CLINTON: Well, why d i d — w a i t a minute, whoa.
SENATOR HARKIN:
Every one of them, every single one
�of them says Arkansas-(Laughter)
GOVERNOR CLINTON: Now wait a minute. Then why d i d
the Sierra Club endorse me i n 1990? Why d i d the Nature
Conservancy give me a n a t i o n a l award three or four years ago?
Why were we recognized f o r having a national model of
r e f o r e s t a t i o n program, a national model i n water p o l l u t i o n
standards. Give me a b r e a k — l o o k at the records. Not one study
that i s — n o t worth the paper i t ' s p r i n t e d on.
MR. BECKEL: I f we get much more paper thrown around
up here, we're going to need a recycling program up here.
(Laughter)
GOVERNOR CLINTON:
I'd be f o r t h a t .
MR. TSONGAS: Could I respond?
MR. BECKEL: Yes, please. And then I've got one f a s t
question f o r a l l of you on the environment.
MR. TSONGAS: Let me j u s t say i t ' s nice to be out of
l i n e of f i r e .
(Laughter)
But l e t ' s keep t h i s i n perspective. On health care,
on c i v i l r i g h t s , on t h i s issue, there may be differences between
us. I was endorsed by the environmental community here—I'm
proud of i t . But you've got to remember that whatever
differences e x i s t are marginal compared to George Bush. And
that's what we are t a l k i n g about.
(Applause)
And when George Bush said he was going to be the
environmental president, r i g h t ?
(Laughter)
You see? I j u s t say the words and you laugh—and then
t r y to destroy h a l f of the wetlands i n t h i s country w i t h
embarrassment, that's why he's going t o lose. There's no core
p r i n c i p l e on not only the environment but women's issues and the
others. And t h i s i s j u s t one example, one example of why the
Democrats have something to say not only to Democrats,
Independents, but thoughtful moderate decent Republicans: Come
on board.
the
MR. BECKEL: Senator, t h i s raises a question which i s
p o l i t i c a l but environmentally connected. W j u s t l i s t e n e d to a
e
f a i r l y heated exchange here. There are those who believe that
�the environment has been an issue that's helped the Democrats.
There have been few of them l a t e l y — t h a t one does. You a l l have
taken a l o t of time a t t a c k i n g one another, whether i t ' s on
nuclear power or a t t a c k i n g the governor, on f i v e cents, on a l l
the things you a l l have attacked each other about.
And the a l l e g a t i o n i s that what you're doing i s
playing i n t o the hands of the Republicans by attacking each
other as strong as you have, p a r t i c u l a r l y around energy and
environmental issues, which should be ours.
How do you respond t o that? Are you a l l h u r t i n g
whoever i s involved's chances i n the end?
SENATOR HARKIN: I t h i n k we ought t o get the record
out; we ought t o look a t the record. That's what we ought t o
look a t .
GOVERNOR CLINTON: This i s a contest, and I don't have
any problem w i t h i t — I j u s t bore the brunt of a l l t h i s l a s t
l i t t l e round here. But we're a l l going to have t o l i v e w i t h our
record as w e l l as our recommendations. And i f you look a t t h e —
I've been i n 17 elections i n 17 years, and my body has the scar
tissue t o show i t . And nothing we've done remotely compares
w i t h the kind of v i c i o u s h i t s that George Bush and h i s people
applied. How d i d he get elected l a s t time? Read my l i p s , and
Dukakis i s a bum. I mean, that's a l l they know.
So I t h i n k that having these arguments i s not
destructive as long as we remember what Senator Tsongas said. I
w i l l t e l l you something, I don't mind arguing w i t h these f o l k s
and I ' l l do i t t i l l tomorrow at dawn, i f you want. But when the
cows come home, I'm going t o be t r y i n g t o replace George Bush
whether I f i n i s h f i r s t or l a s t i n t h i s primary. And as long as
we say t h a t , we're going t o be f i n e .
(Applause)
MR. BECKEL: Anybody else l i k e t o respond?
want to move on.
And then I
MR. BROWN: No, I t h i n k there's a l o t of d i v i s i o n yet
to be had i n t h i s party. I mean, r i g h t now there's a b i l l i n
Congress on energy that i s going t o give an $ l l - b i l l i o n loan
forgiveness t o the nuclear industry that doesn't commit i t s e l f
to r e a l investment i n e f f i c i e n c y , conservation and renewables. I
mean, we have t o f i g h t f o r the soul of t h i s party—who are we,
whom do we represent, and how are we going t o restore true
j u s t i c e and the environmental q u a l i t y of t h i s country. I t takes
a r e a l b a t t l e , drawing of l i n e s . We have to d i v i d e now, so we
can preserve and win the soul of the Democratic Party.
�MR. BECKEL: A f i n a l word?
MR. TSONGAS: Well, I think t h i s format gives us an
opportunity. I mean, a charge was made and a r e b u t t a l . I t
works out f i n e . And the people can make up t h e i r minds. What I
object t o are attack ads, because there's no r e b u t t a l , and an
impression i s l e f t . So that's why i n Denver the other n i g h t I
suggested that we a l l agree, we don't t a l k about anybody else i n
our ads. I f there's an ad that someone does not l i k e that I put
on, w e ' l l take i t o f f .
But u l t i m a t e l y we're not the enemy to each other.
George Bush i s the o b j e c t i v e . What the people want i s a
Democrat i n the White House t o change the d i r e c t i o n of t h i s
country. And the more we attack each other, the more we play
i n t o the hands of George Bush. And I think that despite some
give and take here, that the debate e a r l i e r today i n Georgia and
t h i s debate i s a good give and take. And there's nothing wrong
w i t h t h a t , and hopefully t h i s can continue i n the f u t u r e .
MR. BECKEL: That's a l l r i g h t , I'm glad t o hear t h a t .
(Laughter)
The headlines w i l l be d i f f e r e n t tomorrow.
The Reuter Transcript Report
P r e s i d e n t i a l Debate/Democrats ( f i f t h add)
March 1, 1992
23 REU 03-01-92 20:17 EST 223 Lines.
BC-TEXT-CAMPAIGN/DEBATE-6THADD
THE REUTER TRANSCRIPT REPORT
Copyright 1992. A l l r i g h t s reserved.
TEXT OF THE TELEVISED FORUM BETWEEN DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL
CANDIDATES SPONSORED BY THE MARYLAND DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND THE
UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND'S SCHOOL OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS
P a r t i c i p a n t s : Former C a l i f o r n i a governor Jerry Brown,
Arkansas Gov. B i l l C l i n t o n , Sen. Tom Harkin (D-Iowa), and former
Massachusetts senator Paul Tsongas
Sunday, March 1, 1992
(Sixth Add)
xxx
d i f f e r e n t tomorrow.
MR. BECKEL (continues): Now, we're going t o move on
to a couple of other issues. The next issue i s education. Could
you say who you'd l i k e t o ask your question to and ask your
question, since we've now given a l l four a chance.
�QUESTION: My name i s L i t a O r f i (phonetic). I'm a
graduate student at the U n i v e r s i t y of Maryland, College Park,
School of Public A f f a i r s . My question i s f o r Governor Brown. I n
a n a t i o n a l survey i t showed that kids i n the United States do
less homework but watch more TV than t h e i r counterparts i n other
advanced i n d u s t r i a l nations. Not s u r p r i s i n g l y our kids score
near the bottom of i n t e r n a t i o n a l t e s t s .
As president, what s p e c i f i c a l l y would you do to t u r n
that s i t u a t i o n around?
MR. BROWN: To get kids doing more homework at night?
QUESTION: Well, i f you say that America needs to be
more competitive, the heart of competitiveness remains w i t h
education.
MR. BROWN: I t does. But the president i s not going
to get kids to do that extra hour of homework. We're t a l k i n g
about a c u l t u r e here. We're t a l k i n g about a c u l t u r e that i n
many ways i s i n f a n t i l i z i n g i t s e l f under the onslaught of cheesy
a d v e r t i s i n g and p r o l i f e r a t i n g empty Gong Show kind of programs,
a l l right?
(Applause)
Now I'd l i k e to f i g u r e out a way as president to
upgrade the q u a l i t y of the wasteland.
QUESTION:
(off-mike)
MR. BROWN: Well, I'd put people on the Federal
Communications Commission such as someone l i k e yourself who
would l o o k - - ( l a u g h t e r , applause)--with a jaundiced eye on what's
happening to the t e l e v i s i o n because we should have two or three
learning channels w i t h the best courses, paid f o r by the
taxpayers, i n u n i v e r s i t i e s l i k e t h i s and across the country,
available to a l l our people.
And I want to say, i t ' s not j u s t about science and
math. I t ' s also about a r t and music.
(Applause)
Our second president, John Adams, said to A b i g a i l , he
said, "Look, i n t h i s generation, we have to practice the a r t of
war so our sons can p r a c t i c e the a r t of commerce, so our
grandchildren can p r a c t i c e the a r t of p a i n t i n g , porcelain and
music.''
That was 13 generations ago. Don't you t h i n k i t ' s
time we got w i t h i t and created a renaissance and imagination i n
t h i s country?
MR. BECKEL: A l l r i g h t .
We appreciate your questions.
�You can apply f o r the job a f t e r the show.
Anyone else? Go ahead.
MR. TSONGAS: The f a c t i s , we l i v e i n a very Darwinian
world. I have a 10-year old daughter, and she i s going to
compete w i t h a 10-year old from Japan and a 10-year old from
Germany. I may not l i k e t h a t . That's the t r u t h , and that's
what we have to accept.
I f we're going to have a lesser standard i n terms of
graduation, i n terms of promotion, i n terms of the hours, i n
terms of the number of days i n the year, we're not going to
compete. And the end r e s u l t of that i s the decline of the
American standard of l i v i n g . So, one, I think a president has
to get up and say those things.
But, secondly, and I agree w i t h Governor Brown, I
think the issue goes f a r beyond the s p e c i f i c s . I t i s the
c u l t u r e . I n my book, A C a l l to Economic Arms, the l a s t chapter
i s on c u l t u r e . A n a t i o n i s only as strong as i t s c u l t u r e . And
what we have not done i n t h i s n a t i o n during the SOs of greed and
self-indulgence i s to speak i n c u l t u r a l terms of s p i r i t u a l i t y ,
of g i v i n g our c h i l d r e n some base so they know who they are and
what they stand f o r and where t h e i r self-esteem has to come
from. That's not j u s t learning.
You know, when I was a Peace Corps volunteer i n
teaching, Ethiopia, viewed by many Americans as, quote,
''backward,'* respected education. I t was honored; i t was given
value. That's not true i n t h i s country. We're much more a n t i i n t e l l e c t u a l than i s appropriate. So that's where we have to
come back to--a c u l t u r a l discussion, what i s the value system i n
t h i s c o u n t r y — s o our kids when they grow up are not going to be
influenced by that wasteland, but rather w i l l have a sense of
themselves and a c u l t u r e which honors education.
GOVERNOR CLINTON: I believe a president can a f f e c t a
c u l t u r e , and a r e a l education president could. I've devoted
more time and more of my p o l i t i c a l c a p i t a l t r y i n g t o improve the
education of our c h i l d r e n than anything else i n the l a s t 11
years.
I'm also the proud parent of a student i n the seventh
grade i n the public schools of my state. And a month ago, I
spoke i n that wonderful high school i n East Brooklyn where those
two boys were shot down and murdered j u s t a couple of days ago.
I t h i n k i t ' s p l a i n what we need to do. F i r s t of a l l ,
the president needs to say, "We l i v e i n a world i n which what
you earn depends on what you can learn. You have to stay i n
school.''
Here's what I owe you. I owe you national standards
and a n a t i o n a l examination system. I owe you an adequate amount
�of investment i n the public schools so we can have pre-school
programs f o r a l l , and before- and after-school programs so
c h i l d r e n can spend more time studying.''
My daughter can go t o school any morning a t 7 o'clock
i n the morning and have extra homework time w i t h help from a
teacher there.
We owe you access t o an apprenticeship program f o r two
years of t r a i n i n g a f t e r high school. We owe you access t o
college without regard t o your income. I propose a national
system of voluntary service so any American can borrow the money
to go t o college--any American—and pay i t back w i t h a small
percentage of income over time or w i t h two years of service t o
our country here at home as teachers, police o f f i c e r s or
whatever.
But what you owe us i s t o stay i n school and do your
best. I n my s t a t e , i f you drop out of school f o r no good
reason, you lose your d r i v e r ' s license. I f you're a parent and
you won't show up f o r a parent conference repeatedly, you can be
f i n e d . But we also have the best programs f o r pre-school of any
state i n the south: 35 percent of our 4-year olds i n pre-school
programs, and I'm proud of t h a t . We can do something.
MR. BECKEL:
•
Senator Harkin.
SENATOR HARKIN: While, I agree w i t h a l l that's been
aid before me, I do believe that we're missing the point here.
I'm i n a unique p o s i t i o n - - ! serve on both the Labor and
Education Authorizing Committee and I chair the Appropriations
Connnittee i n the Senate on education. So f o r several years,
I've been i n t i m a t e l y involved w i t h a l l of the educational
programs i n America.
And what we have gone down i s the track of patching
and f i x i n g and mending. Habits are formed early i n l i f e , we
know t h a t . And so what I have been c a l l i n g f o r and I've been
t r y i n g t o move our educational system i s early i n t e r v e n t i o n
programs.
We have t o r e t h i n k education i n t h i s country. We have
to t h i n k that education begins a t b i r t h and the preparation f o r
education begins even before b i r t h . That means maternal and
c h i l d h e a l t h care programs ought t o be funded because when that
c h i l d i s born healthy, that c h i l d i s better able t o learn—when
we have Head Start programs and f u l l y funded Women, Infants and
Children's programs.
In 1988, Bush as a candidate said he wanted t o f u l l y
fund Head S t a r t . He j u s t d i d n ' t t e l l you when.
(Laughter)
Under h i s proposals, w e ' l l f u l l y fund i t i n the year
2050. That i s t o t a l l y unacceptable.
�So we have t o reach out. Dr. Terry Brazelton
(phonetic) from Harvard has pointed out, has showed w i t h
s c i e n t i f i c proof that you can raise the IQ of any c h i l d by 13
points before the age of 3. That's where we have t o focus our
a t t e n t i o n — e a r l y i n t e r v e n t i o n , early education, early health
care programs t o get these k i d s ' habits learned early on i n
life.
And then when we get to school, we have to have more
guidance counselors i n our elementary schools; we have t o have
smaller class sizes, and I have proposed that no elementary
class be bigger than 25 students; and l a s t , we need t o make sure
that we have strong and well-funded g i f t e d and talented programs
for our exceptional students.
MR. BECKEL: A l l r i g h t , thank you, Senator. I'm
a f r a i d we're going t o have t o move on to another t o p i c . We're
running short of time.
The next topic i s f o r e i g n p o l i c y , and your question,
please, Stan Turner.
ADMIRAL TURNER: I'm Admiral Stansfield Turner of the
f a c u l t y of the School of Public A f f a i r s . Mr. Bush's f a i l u r e t o
drive Saddam Hussein out of power i n Iraq has l e d t o some people
c a l l i n g f o r a p o l i c y of assassination. Governor C l i n t o n , do you
f e e l assassination i s an acceptable course f o r the United States
i t h regard t o f o r e i g n leaders under any circumstance?
GOVERNOR CLINTON: Under any circumstance I can t h i n k
of, no. We took a stand against assassination, as you know,
Admiral. And your d i s t i n g u i s h e d leadership i n the Carter
a d m i n i s t r a t i o n stood up f o r that p r i n c i p l e . That i s a very
slippery slope f o r us t o go down.
We've had presidents assassinated i n t h i s country and
we know how p a i n f u l and awful i t can be. On the other hand, I
don't t h i n k we can r u l e out m i l i t a r y a c t i o n i n which a r u l e r of
another country might or might not be k i l l e d i f they v i o l a t e
i n t e r n a t i o n a l law, i f they threaten the security of t h e i r
neighbors and they threaten our security.
And I t h i n k we're going t o have a monthly gut check,
no matter who's elected president, every month f o r the next four
or f i v e years, maybe beyond, i n t r y i n g t o keep d i c t a t o r s i n
I r a q , I r a n , Korea and other places from g e t t i n g nuclear
capacity. And I t h i n k we have to be very tough, hopefully
working through the U.N. and inspections, i n t r y i n g to prevent
that sort of t h i n g .
But an actual take-out operation, I don't t h i n k our
country ought t o get i n t o t h a t . That's not the kind of country
we are. I f we're going t o go t o war w i t h somebody or engage i n
�m i l i t a r y combat, l e t ' s do i t an open, straightforward way, based
on s e t t l e d p r i n c i p l e s of i n t e r n a t i o n a l law and understandable
rules that make i t l e g a l and proper. I j u s t don't want to see
our country get i n t o the h i t squad business.
The Reuter Transcript Report
P r e s i d e n t i a l Debate/Democrats ( s i x t h add)
March 1, 1992
24 REU 03-01-92 20:19 EST 243 Lines.
BC-TEXT-CAMPAIGN/DEBATE-7THADD
THE REUTER TRANSCRIPT REPORT
Copyright 1992. A l l r i g h t s reserved.
TEXT OF THE TELEVISED FORUM BETWEEN DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL
CANDIDATES SPONSORED BY THE MARYLAND DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND THE
UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND'S SCHOOL OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS
P a r t i c i p a n t s : Former C a l i f o r n i a governor Jerry Brown,
Arkansas Gov. B i l l C l i n t o n , Sen. Tom Harkin (D-Iowa), and former
Massachusetts senator Paul Tsongas
Sunday, March 1, 1992
(Seventh Add)
xxx
squad business.
ADMIRAL TURNER: A l l r i g h t , gentlemen, do you a l l want
to take a shot a t t h a t , please. Go ahead, Governor Brown.
MR. BROWN: I can't envision assassination as a p o l i c y
of the country of Jefferson and Washington and the forebears
that we proudly descend from. But more importantly, what i s
f o r e i g n policy? Sometimes when people ask me about t h a t , I have
the sense--Who are you going t o k i l l . Brown?
(Laughter)
But r e a l l y , f o r e i g n p o l i c y ought t o be about dealing
w i t h the largest issues a f f e c t i n g humanity. And the f i r s t i s
hunger: l e t us end world hunger. Human r i g h t s : l e t ' s end
t o r t u r e , t o the extent that we as a nation can do that united
w i t h other countries. Let's be the leaders i n stopping these
obscene arms sales. Didn't Bush say--or Baker--10 months ago,
we weren't going t o s e l l as many arms i n the Middle East? They
j u s t sold 6 b i l l i o n already, and they've got several b i l l i o n
more t o go. I mean, l e t ' s curb those arms sales. That's
f o r e i g n p o l i c y that we're neglecting.
And f i n a l l y , l e t ' s regain the moral leadership on the
global environment. And when we do t h a t , we i n s t i l l and
�strengthen the very values that make America America and bring
out of our c i t i z e n s the very best that's i n them.
ADMIRAL TURNER: Senator Tsongas.
MR. TSONGAS: Admiral, I think assassination i s not
appropriate. That's not America. We're above t h a t . I f we do
not set a standard of j u s t i c e i n behavior, who else i s going t o
do i t ? Let me j u s t say--this i s a long story, I ' l l make i t very
short.
When I was i n Peace Corps, one day I rode w i t h my
students i n t o the Ethiopian countryside, hours and hours and
hours. We came to a man's hut. We walked i n . There were two
pictures on the w a l l . One was Haile Selassie, who was the
emperor of Ethiopia; the other one was Jack Kennedy. We stood
for something there, l i k e Jimmy Carter stood f o r human r i g h t s .
We have t o go back t o that standard. When George Bush
overlooked Tiananmen Square, America l o s t something, something
precious, something sacred. And whatever differences we may
have, again, I repeat that our foreign policy w i l l be based on
p r i n c i p l e s that we embrace a t home. What George Bush has done
i s , once he leaves these borders, which he does a l l the t i m e —
(Laughter)
--he abandons our p r i n c i p l e s , and i t becomes
expediency, and that i s not what America i s a l l about.
(Applause)
ADMIRAL TURNER: Senator Harkin.
SENATOR HARKIN: Well, the short answer i s no, of
course not. We don't engage i n assassinations. And again, my
record i s clear on t h i s . The f i r s t b i l l that I passed a
freshman congressman i n 1975, the Human Rights Amendment, set up
the Human Rights Office and provided f o r a human r i g h t s
assessment i n countries before we permit foreign a i d and f o r e i g n
arms t o go t o those countries. So I have a long h i s t o r y i n
that.
What Bush has taken us t o i s a foreign policy based
upon one premise--the enemy of my enemy i s my f r i e n d . And that
has gotten us i n t o a l l kinds of trouble. That's what led George
Bush t o coddle Saddam Hussein f o r several years. I t ' s what led
George Bush and the CIA t o put Noriega on the p a y r o l l . I t ' s
what led George Bush and the Reagan a d m i n i s t r a t i o n to befriend
Marcos i n the P h i l i p p i n e s .
We have t o have a p o l i c y of engendering human r i g h t s ,
as Governor Brown said, h e a l t h and education development. I
have j u s t introduced l e g i s l a t i o n that would say that our
representatives on the World Bank, IMF, Inter-American
�Development Bank, a l l these lending i n s t i t u t i o n s , are to vote
against any loan t o any t h i r d world country that spends more on
t h e i r m i l i t a r y than they do on health and education i n t h e i r own
country. That's the kind of f o r e i g n policy we ought to have.
(Applause)
MR. BECKEL: Gentlemen, I want t o f o l l o w up w i t h a
question, i f I could--and I don't think you're going t o l i k e my
question. Governor Brown--I'm sorry, because i t has t o do w i t h
shooting people again. But I want t o f o l l o w up and ask you t h i s
question. And I ' l l s t a r t w i t h you, Governor Brown.
Had you been president during Desert Storm, and you
had made the same decision George Bush had to commit to Desert
Storm, would you have gone on i n t o Baghdad to secure Baghdad and
the toppling of Saddam Hussein i f - - a n d these are my figures — the
loss of American l i v e s were i n the neighborhood of 2,000?
MR. BROWN: F i r s t of a l l , I don't believe we have the
f u l l facts on exactly what was possible leading up t o the
decision t o commit men and weapons t o that b a t t l e , okay? I
don't t h i n k we r e a l l y know what happened.
(Scattered applause)
Secondly, I d i d oppose the commencement of
h o s t i l i t i e s , and I t h i n k the subsequent events have proved that
ecision r i g h t , because we're s t i l l j u s t as dependent on o i l .
addam Hussein i s s t i l l there i n charge. And we're s t i l l facing
the same kind of c o n f l i c t s i n the Middle East that we had a year
ago.
Now, when you s t a r t a war, i f i t ' s to defend
democracy, sure, you make sure you remove the adversary or you
get a settlement, a peace that i s secure. But I believe we've
started down that road, and the f a c t that they l e f t Saddam
Hussein there was j u s t another i n d i c a t i o n i t was part of a
R e a l p o l i t i k ; they were g i v i n g Saddam Hussein AWACS radar
information a few weeks—that's what the Bush administration was
d o i n g — b e f o r e he even invaded Kuwait.
So what I'm saying i s , i f the war i s j u s t i f i e d ,
obviously you want t o get an honorable peace. But I r e a l l y
think that —
MR. BECKEL:
I s the answer yes on that?
I s the answer
yes?
MR. BROWN: I'm saying that whole war was bungled from
s t a r t t o f i n i s h , and i t was bad from the beginning, and the
consequences a r e — I t h i n k we're s t i l l reaping them, and they're
going t o grow.
�MR. BECKEL: A l l r i g h t , Governor Clinton?
GOVERNOR CLINTON: The answer t o your question i s , no,
I would not have marched on Baghdad, because we gave seven of
our Arab a l l i e s our word that we would not do that i n r e t u r n f o r
t h e i r j o i n i n g the United Nations c o a l i t i o n . What I would have
done, however, i s take General Schwarzkopf's advice and avoid
the PR value of the 100-hour war, stay another day and a h a l f ,
destroyed a s i g n i f i c a n t p o r t i o n of the Republican Guard and 700
tanks and given the I r a q i s t h e i r own chance t o overthrow Saddam
Hussein, which I t h i n k might have happened. That's what we
should have done.
I want t o say one other t h i n g . I don't accept the
premise that that war was j u s t about o i l . That war was about
invasion; i t was about a d i c t a t o r invading another country; i t
was about threatening even other countries l i k e Saudi Arabia. I t
was about our f r i e n d s , the only democracy i n the Middle East,
I s r a e l , who badly wanted us t o be involved there and stop Saddam
Hussein before he went f u r t h e r . I t was about much, much more
than o i l . And I t h i n k that the president should have followed
General Schwarzkopf's advice.
One l a s t p o i n t . When i t was over, we acted l i k e
Saddam Hussein was our l a s t best f r i e n d . We couldn't w a i t t o
keep him i n power. We're not going t o be able t o explain why we
t r y t o assassinate, i f we do now. I t was shameless what we
allowed t o happen t o the Shi'ites and the Kurds when i t was
over. But i t should have gone on I t h i n k , as Schwarzkopf
wanted, f o r another day and a h a l f .
But, no--even I have t o give t h i s to George Bush--we
gave our word we wouldn't inarch on Baghdad, and we couldn't do
i t . We gave our word we wouldn't do i t .
MR. BECKEL:
Senator Harkin.
SENATOR HARKIN: I t h i n k the question r e a l l y i s the
wrong question. You're asking us what would we do w i t h the mess
that George Bush got us i n t o . As president, we wouldn't have
gotten i n that mess, you see, because f o r several years before
t h a t , Bush and Reagan coddled Saddam Hussein. Governor Brown i s
r i g h t : they gave him information. We t r i e d several times i n
the Congress t o put sanctions on I r a q . Every time the Bush
a d m i n i s t r a t i o n said no, they would veto i t . Within j u s t a week
of the invasion we t r i e d t o put on sanctions; Bush said no.
Bush sent h i s ambassador t o see Saddam Hussein, t o
t e l l him that we had no opinion on h i s border disputes. Green
l i g h t - - g r e e n l i g h t . And then a f t e r he took over Kuwait, our
ambassador was quoted as saying "We d i d n ' t think he'd take i t
all. "
�(Laughter)
Well, how much, Mr. Bush, d i d you think he would take?
What were you w i l l i n g to accept? That's what got us i n t o t h i s
mess i s t h i s idea the enemy of my enemy i s my f r i e n d . And
that's why he befriended Saddam Hussein a l l those years.
As president I would have done what John Kennedy did
during the Cuban m i s s i l e c r i s i s , not wait u n t i l you go to w a r have something happens and go to war to get him out. You see,
what John Kennedy said to Khrushchev, he said you're not going
to put the m i s s i l e s i n Cuba. He didn't wait t i l l he got i n
there and then go to war to get him out.
And what I would have said to Saddam Hussein was j u s t
what the B r i t i s h d i d i n 1961 when I r a q threatened Kuwait. They
sent some troops down there and they said, i f Iraq invades
Kuwait, they f i g h t us. Red l i g h t .
What I would have done as president when he moved his
troops up to the border, I would have said the f i r s t I r a q i t o
cross the border i s a dead man, because he's going to be
f i g h t i n g the United States Army and the United States m i l i t a r y .
That red l i g h t would have stopped Saddam Hussein.
(Laughter)
MR. BECKEL:
Sorry about the red l i g h t , but I had t o
do i t .
(Laughter)
MR. TSONGAS: You j u s t took my joke, Bob.
defer i n the future?
MR. BECKEL:
Could you
I'm sorry.
MR. TSONGAS: No, you're not.
(Laughter)
Let me say the answer i s no. We were there under U.N.
r e s o l u t i o n s , and we had a commitment to those and we had t o
s t i c k to them.
Let me make one point about George Bush. People say
he has a l l t h i s f o r e i g n p o l i c y experience. Well, experience and
wisdom aren't the same t h i n g .
(Applause)
You can t a l k about Tiananmen Square, but l e t ' s j u s t
t a l k about that one incident i n the Persian Gulf. Remember when
Saddam Hussein was Adolf H i t l e r , remember? What happened? Well,
when we got there, Jim Baker and George Bush decided they wanted
an i n t a c t I r a q as a counterweight to Islamic fundamentalism, so
the fear that they would divide the country i n t o the e x i s t e n t ,
the S h i ' i t e and the Kurdish nations, was anathema because they
then worried about Islamic fundamentalism. So what happened t o
�Adolf H i t l e r ? He l i v e s .
That i s not wisdom; that i s expediency. And that's
why we get ourselves i n t o trouble. There are no basic
p r i n c i p l e s that are permanent, that we can r e l y upon; i t ' s ad
hoc'ing through f o r e i g n p o l i c y . I t doesn't work. You have t o
have a core set of b e l i e f s that people know what they're dealing
w i t h . And the example given here e a r l i e r about our r e l a t i o n s h i p
w i t h I r a q over the years I t h i n k points that out as w e l l .
The Reuter Transcript Report
P r e s i d e n t i a l Debate/Democrats (seventh add)
March 1, 1992
25 REU 03-01-92 20:27 EST 217 Lines.
BC-TEXT-CAMPAIGN/DEBATE-8THADD
THE REUTER TRANSCRIPT REPORT
Copyright 1992. A l l r i g h t s reserved.
TEXT OF THE TELEVISED FORUM BETWEEN DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL
CANDIDATES SPONSORED BY THE MARYLAND DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND THE
UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND'S SCHOOL OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS
P a r t i c i p a n t s : Former C a l i f o r n i a governor Jerry Brown,
Arkansas Gov. B i l l C l i n t o n , Sen. Tom Harkin (D-Iowa), and former
Massachusetts senator Paul Tsongas
Sunday, March 1, 1992
(Eighth Add)
x x x as w e l l .
MR. BECKEL: Okay, we've got very, very b r i e f time, so
I ' l l ask you a l l t o l i m i t your answer t o 30 seconds on t h i s
question. Please i d e n t i f y yourself.
QUESTION: Good evening, my name i s Orlanda T e r r e l l ,
I'm a master's student a t the School of Public A f f a i r s .
Senator Tsongas, i f the Supreme Court overrules Roe v.
Wade during your presidency, what measures, i f any, w i l l you
take t o ensure a woman's r i g h t t o an abortion.
MR. TSONGAS: Let me state very c l e a r l y : t h i s i s an
issue I care about desperately. When the women's groups i n New
Hampshire endorsed a candidate, I was that candidate. I'm the
only candidate here who's been resolute on t h i s issue, has made
no statements or taken no actions that would v i o l a t e t h a t . Roe
versus Wade i s the law of the land; i t should remain the law of
the land. And George Bush, who used t o be f o r planned
�parenthood, and made that long journey, that long journey t o the
Reagan r i g h t t o be anti-choice. That's the real George Bush.
Roe versus Wade i s going t o be the law of the land when I'm
president of the United States, period.
MR. BECKEL: Gentlemen, please, w e ' l l have to have
quick answers. Governor.
MR. BROWN: I w i l l do everything possible t o re-enact
i t through congressional enactment, and I would j u s t put my
record before people: I appointed seven judges, they upheld the
r i g h t of privacy, including the r i g h t of a woman to make her own
choices and reproductive decisions.
MR. BECKEL:
Senator Harkin.
SENATOR HARKIN: F i r s t of a l l , we would codify Roe v.
Wade; secondly, I would not support any Supreme Court j u s t i c e
that didn't uphold the p r i n c i p l e s and Roe v. Wade; and, t h i r d ,
these sweeping statements by Mr. Tsongas that women's groups
supported him i n New Hampshire--the former president of the
National Women's P o l i t i c a l Caucus came up there t o campaign f o r
me. I don't know about a l l these grand sweeping statements that
a l l these environmental groups--! had Sierra Club on my side and
others that were campaigning f o r me. And these are j u s t big
uge g e n e r a l i t i e s that r e a l l y don't mean much.
MR. BECKEL: Folks, please. Governor C l i n t o n , give
you a chance t o respond and then w e ' l l have to move on t o
closing statements.
GOVERNOR CLINTON: I would go as f a r as we could t o
codify Roe v. Wade. We can't do i t completely, but we could do
something w i t h the Federal Reproductive Rights Act. I would
rescind the gag order and I would oppose the Justice
Department's present p o s i t i o n on Operation Rescue. And then, i f
given the opportunity, I would appoint f a r higher q u a l i t y , more
excellent Supreme Court j u s t i c e s . We'd take i t out of p o l i t i c s .
And I would expect the judges t o believe i n the B i l l of Rights,
including the r i g h t t o privacy.
MR. BECKEL: A l l r i g h t , gentlemen, thank you very
much. We've come t o that point i n the program, f o l k s - (Applause)
Please, we're running very short of time. We've come
to that part of the program f o r closing statements--90 seconds.
By order of l o t chosen, we begin w i t h Senator Harkin. Senator
Harkin.
�SENATOR HARKIN: F i r s t of a l l , I want t o thank the
good Democrats of Maryland f o r sending Senator Sarbanes and
Senator M i k u l s k i t o Washington.
(Applause)
They don't come any b e t t e r than t h a t . H i , Barbara,
good t o see you.
(Laughter)
This e l e c t i o n , I believe, i s about two things: W i l l
we make a clean break w i t h Reagan-Bush trickle-down economics?
And, secondly, w i l l we f i g h t f o r the heart and soul of the
Democratic Party? Our campaign, I believe, represents the
cleanest break from trickle-down supply-side economics. I also
believe I have the m a t u r i t y , the judgment, and the experience t o
lead t h i s party and t o lead t h i s country. I am the most
progressive of the candidates who are campaigning today. I
believe that I can best put forward the Democratic values up
against George Bush--our Democratic values of care, compassion
and o p p o r t u n i t y — u p against George Bush's greed and s e l f i n t e r e s t . That's who we are as Democrats. Let's not give up
our heart and soul. Let's f i g h t f o r who we are and what we
believe i n as Democrats i n t h i s country. That's what our
campaign has been a l l a b o u t — n o t t r y i n g t o be Tweedle-Dee,
Tweedle-Dum, a l i t t l e b i t of t h i s and a l i t t l e b i t of t h a t . I f
that's what you want, then you don't want t o support me. But i f
you want a tough, h a r d - h i t t i n g , progressive Democrat that stands
or care and compassion and opportunity, I ask f o r your support
m Tuesday t o do two things: get r i d of trickle-down, supplyside economics; and capture the heart and soul of the Democratic
Party, and b r i n g people i n t o the Democratic Party a l l over
America.
MR. BROWN: I come a t t h i s w i t h the experience of
being the c h i e f executive of the largest state, equivalent t o
the economy of the eighth largest country i n the world. I've
been around p o l i t i c s a l l my l i f e . I n f a c t , back i n 1976 I ran
for president against Jimmy Carter i n t h i s very s t a t e — a n d beat
him.
I've got a l o t of experience on how t h i s thing works.
And I l e f t p o l i t i c s i n 1983, and I came back, and I r e a l l y
rubbed my nose i n i t as party chairman. And there's something
wrong. The governing e l i t e s of t h i s country, they're j u s t
blowing i t . Something i s n ' t r i g h t out there. M i l l i o n s of
people are s u f f e r i n g , and i t ' s not necessary. This p o l i t i c a l
system, i t ' s unreal. And I've designed a campaign that's a
cause. We c a l l i t "we, the people.'' And i t depends on the
American people themselves taking back t h e i r democracy.
And the reason why I've c r i t i c i z e d and stood aside
from the $1000 donations and the PACs i s because I t h i n k we've
�got t o take a sledgehammer t o break up the g r i d l o c k that i s
paralyzing t h i s country. And that's why I ask people: c a l l us,
j o i n i n and c a l l that 800 number--426-1112--because on the basis
of t h a t , you who don't have power can recapture what belongs t o
you i n t h i s country.
MR. BECKEL: I j u s t won a $1000 bet on t h a t .
ahead, Senator Tsongas.
(Laughter, applause)
MR. BROWN: 426-1112.
these other candidates-please.
Go
W don't have as much money as
e
MR. BECKEL: I ' l l give you the money I won on the bet,
Senator Tsongas?
MR. BROWN: We don't get $1000.
MR. BECKEL:
I ' l l give you $100.
W only get-e
Let's go.
MR. TSONGAS: The moneychangers are c o n t r o l l i n g the
country up here.
I f e e l naked without an 800 number.
When I began t h i s campaign—it w i l l be a year ago and
5 days—George Bush was a t 91 percent. I'd been out of o f f i c e
or a long time. I was a Greek from Massachusetts.
Why d i d I do i t ? What was the purpose?
I l i v e i n the p r i v a t e sector, the real world. The
United States i s g e t t i n g beaten by the Japanese and the Germans
and others because of the Reagan-Bush avoidance p o l i t i c s . And I
wanted t o a l e r t the country, number one. Number two, change my
party t o make i t resolute on the social issues, human r i g h t s ,
women's r i g h t s , gay r i g h t s , c i v i l r i g h t s and the environment.
That's the heart and soul of our party.
But, understand, people do not t r u s t the Democrats
w i t h the economy. We have t o reach out t o the business
community--manufacturing.
This state knows what happens when
you lose manufacturing. And, f i n a l l y , there has t o be purpose
generationally, that we take what was given t o us by our
ancestors, make i t whole, heal i t , and turn that over t o our
children—something that Reagan-Bush has no sense o f .
GOVERNOR CLINTON: F i r s t , I ' d l i k e t o thank the
U n i v e r s i t y of Maryland. As a graduate of Georgetown, i t ' s nice
to have safe passage here tonight.
I'd l i k e t o thank the people
of Maryland who have supported my campaign, including Louie
Goldstein who was i n p o l i t i c s before I was born and Congressman
Hoyer and McMillan, Cardin, and my good f r i e n d . Mayor Schmoke
�from Baltimore.
A l l of you have a decision to make. This country has
become weak at home and weaker abroad. We're losing our way.
Our working people are going downhill. Poverty i s exploding. I n
t h i s e l e c t i o n , you have a chance to vote f o r fundamental change.
I've worked f o r years as a governor t o create jobs, t o
educate c h i l d r e n , t o open opportunity, and t o change the whole
d i r e c t i o n of the Democratic Party. I've offered a d e t a i l e d plan
that goes beyond the t i r e d bromides of l e f t and r i g h t and
l i b e r a l and conservative, and i s focused on opportunity,
r e s p o n s i b i l i t y and community--a plan t h a t , yes, gives business
targeted incentives t o reinvest i n our country, but, no, does
not r e l a x a c c o u n t a b i l i t y , no, does not give an across-the-board
c a p i t a l gains tax, and, yes, says, people are more important
than money. We've got t o reorganize our people, educate them,
enable them t o compete and win i n a global economy.
I f you w i l l look at my record, i f you w i l l look at my
plan, i f you w i l l measure my commitment, I hope you w i l l support
me here on Tuesday.
Thank you very much.
(Applause)
MR. BECKEL: Folks, I want t o thank you a l l f o r the
patience, except f o r the guy that i n t e r r u p t e d me. I want t o
also thank everybody who's l i s t e n i n g out there i n t h i s
viewership i n t h i s and other states. And I ask you i n closing
inly one things.
This r i g h t t o vote i s a d i f f i c u l t one t o come by. Not
enough of you exercise i t . On Tuesday i n a number of states,
you have that opportunity. We c e r t a i n l y hope y o u ' l l do i t .
Thank you a l l very much.
k
END OF DEBATE
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Michael Waldman
Description
An account of the resource
<p>Michael Waldman was Assistant to the President and Director of Speechwriting from 1995-1999. His responsibilities were writing and editing nearly 2,000 speeches, which included four State of the Union speeches and two Inaugural Addresses. From 1993 -1995 he served as Special Assistant to the President for Policy Coordination.</p>
<p>The collection generally consists of copies of speeches and speech drafts, talking points, memoranda, background material, correspondence, reports, handwritten notes, articles, clippings, and presidential schedules. A large volume of this collection was for the State of the Union speeches. Many of the speech drafts are heavily annotated with additions or deletions. There are a lot of articles and clippings in this collection.</p>
<p>Due to the size of this collection it has been divided into two segments. Use links below for access to the individual segments:<br /><a href="http://clinton.presidentiallibraries.us/items/browse?advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=43&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=2006-0469-F+Segment+1">Segment One</a><br /><a href="http://clinton.presidentiallibraries.us/items/browse?advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=43&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=2006-0469-F+Segment+2">Segment Two</a></p>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Michael Waldman
Office of Speechwriting
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1993-1999
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
2006-0469-F
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
Segment One contains 1071 folders in 72 boxes.
Segment Two contains 868 folders in 66 boxes.
Provenance
A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource.
Clinton Presidential Records: White House Staff and Office Files
Publisher
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William J. Clinton Presidential Library & Museum
Format
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Adobe Acrobat Document
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
paper
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
NH [New Hampshire] Debates and Early Interviews I [3]
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Office of Speechwriting
Michael Waldman
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Box 66
<a href="http://clinton.presidentiallibraries.us/items/show/36404"> Collection Finding Aid</a>
<a href="https://catalog.archives.gov/id/7763296">National Archives Catalog Description</a>
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
2006-0469-F Segment 2
Provenance
A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource.
White House Staff and Office Files
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
William J. Clinton Presidential Library & Museum
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Adobe Acrobat Document
Medium
The material or physical carrier of the resource.
Preservation-Reproduction-Reference
Date Created
Date of creation of the resource.
6/3/2015
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
7763296
42-t-7763296-20060469F-Seg2-066-001-2015